Orion 80mm ED--in my hands--tested!

Pierre Vandevenne wrote in message news:
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that apo cost much less than that
small chromathing addon you sell?

Boy, you must really be using fancy fancy glass in that thing. Or be even
_more_ dishonest than the sellers of those overpriced apos... but of course
it can't be.

Your argument is something akin to criticising the price of a Nagler
eyepiece because it costs as much more than the scope it's used in.
You've made a category mistake. But since you speak of dishonesty -
that wasn't really the point of your post anyway. You just wanted to
get in a dig at Valery. I'd suggest you lurk until you have something
useful to contribute. You'll look a lot less foolish that way.

Mike in Oregon

"Pierre Vandevenne" wrote in message
. 180...
(Mike Burley) wrote in
om:

Pierre Vandevenne wrote in message news:
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that apo cost much less than
that small chromathing addon you sell?

Boy, you must really be using fancy fancy glass in that thing. Or be
even _more_ dishonest than the sellers of those overpriced apos...
but of course it can't be.

Your argument is something akin to criticising the price of a Nagler
eyepiece because it costs as much more than the scope it's used in.

Not it is not, simply because Mr Nagler doesn't go around criticising
his competition. You just edited Valery's post out of the response.
Stupid basic usenet trick.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

But since you speak of dishonesty -
that wasn't really the point of your post anyway. You just wanted to
get in a dig at Valery. I'd suggest you lurk until you have something
useful to contribute. You'll look a lot less foolish that way.

Aaaaah, all we needed was another CENSORED to contribute a very very
useful post such as this one to the thread when it was dying.

You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.

Hi Pierre,

Glad it doesn't bother you, but insulting people is not the object. Instead,
what Valery works at is identifying the BS in posts. This is something
everyone does. We all evaluate what we hear. We do this all day long,
without even being conscious of it. However, when it comes to technical
matters, we sometimes do not have enough knowledge to determine if someone
is giving accurate info or blowing smoke. This is especially true when it is
someone who designs and manufactures the product (like Aries), someone who
assembles what others manufacture (like SV), or a retailer (like the local
telescope shop). But when they come to an open forum like this, even the
least knowledgeable has an advantage in that there are a lot of others who
are knowledgeable. And so the hype is isolated and identified quicker here
than almost anyplace else.

Usually, it doesn't take long for hype to be questioned. If the person
admits it or stops, it dies down. Sometimes, it is a group and they keep at
it --- either the manufacturer/assembler/retailer or those using that brand
of equipment. In that case, it can get ugly. There are a lot of people here
who have little use for unfounded hype.

Occasionally, someone tries to use their position in the astro community to
pose as an expert beyond questioning. Yet they still throw out untrue hype.
For one reason or another, people may be reluctant to point it out,
especially if that person is merely being quoted by someone who knows very
little. Or it may be that the individual has done well in the past (not
blowing smoke/hype) and people are willing to give them a break as a result.
But if it continues, this group will eventually nail them.

Many people contribute to this. Most have their own areas of expertise. That
is, one person may be very familiar with refractors, while another knows
off-axis newts or SCTs or Poncet-style platforms or Bartel drives or...
Well, you get the idea. Lots of people contribute. In Valery's case, we have
someone who is extremely knowledgeable in a wide range of optical areas. He
has a very impressive design resume. IIRC, someone was pointing out
professional optics systems he has worked on. He created the chromacor, a
type of corrector that many had desired for years but did not exist until
Valery designed it. He designed the 10" Mak that both AP and Aries sold.
That is both a beautiful bit of design work as well as skillful work in
implementing it for both Valery and Rolland. Few could have designed it and
even fewer could make it with that level of precision. (and that design
requires great precision). And so, with that level of knowledge and
experience, Valery is an human hype-detector. And unfortunately, there are a
lot of people in this business who over hype their products, either through
condemning good scopes others sell or promising results their scopes do not
deliver.

Understand, I do not always agree with Valery. We had a running argument
over the usefulness of MV filters and comparisons with the Chromacor. This
was on the Chinese-Refractor group at Yahoo. It lasted for quite a while and
got very specific. And yes, I would have preferred it if he had been less
abrasive. But even so, it was a part of my own ongoing education and he
forced me to be very careful and precise in my statements. And in the end, I
think we both had an appreciation for each other's knowledge. (of course, in
my case and his, it was him appreciating how little I know, and me
appreciating how much more he knows! :-) At different times, I think
each of us thought the other was trying to snow the other. But we slowly
resolved that each was working to be honest. And with that, we learned to
coexist and even respect each other.

But there are some out there (and even here) who are not being fully honest.
And I know no way of arousing Valery than to post a dishonest optics claim.
When that happens, he is like a BS-seeking missile. True, it is not always a
pretty sight. But it does blow up the BS.

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

"Pierre Vandevenne" wrote in message
. 180...
(Mike Burley) wrote in
om:

Pierre Vandevenne wrote in message news:
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that apo cost much less than
that small chromathing addon you sell?

Boy, you must really be using fancy fancy glass in that thing. Or be
even _more_ dishonest than the sellers of those overpriced apos...
but of course it can't be.

Your argument is something akin to criticising the price of a Nagler
eyepiece because it costs as much more than the scope it's used in.

Not it is not, simply because Mr Nagler doesn't go around criticising
his competition. You just edited Valery's post out of the response.
Stupid basic usenet trick.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

But since you speak of dishonesty -
that wasn't really the point of your post anyway. You just wanted to
get in a dig at Valery. I'd suggest you lurk until you have something
useful to contribute. You'll look a lot less foolish that way.

Aaaaah, all we needed was another CENSORED to contribute a very very
useful post such as this one to the thread when it was dying.

You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.

Hi Pierre,

Glad it doesn't bother you, but insulting people is not the object. Instead,
what Valery works at is identifying the BS in posts. This is something
everyone does. We all evaluate what we hear. We do this all day long,
without even being conscious of it. However, when it comes to technical
matters, we sometimes do not have enough knowledge to determine if someone
is giving accurate info or blowing smoke. This is especially true when it is
someone who designs and manufactures the product (like Aries), someone who
assembles what others manufacture (like SV), or a retailer (like the local
telescope shop). But when they come to an open forum like this, even the
least knowledgeable has an advantage in that there are a lot of others who
are knowledgeable. And so the hype is isolated and identified quicker here
than almost anyplace else.

Usually, it doesn't take long for hype to be questioned. If the person
admits it or stops, it dies down. Sometimes, it is a group and they keep at
it --- either the manufacturer/assembler/retailer or those using that brand
of equipment. In that case, it can get ugly. There are a lot of people here
who have little use for unfounded hype.

Occasionally, someone tries to use their position in the astro community to
pose as an expert beyond questioning. Yet they still throw out untrue hype.
For one reason or another, people may be reluctant to point it out,
especially if that person is merely being quoted by someone who knows very
little. Or it may be that the individual has done well in the past (not
blowing smoke/hype) and people are willing to give them a break as a result.
But if it continues, this group will eventually nail them.

Many people contribute to this. Most have their own areas of expertise. That
is, one person may be very familiar with refractors, while another knows
off-axis newts or SCTs or Poncet-style platforms or Bartel drives or...
Well, you get the idea. Lots of people contribute. In Valery's case, we have
someone who is extremely knowledgeable in a wide range of optical areas. He
has a very impressive design resume. IIRC, someone was pointing out
professional optics systems he has worked on. He created the chromacor, a
type of corrector that many had desired for years but did not exist until
Valery designed it. He designed the 10" Mak that both AP and Aries sold.
That is both a beautiful bit of design work as well as skillful work in
implementing it for both Valery and Rolland. Few could have designed it and
even fewer could make it with that level of precision. (and that design
requires great precision). And so, with that level of knowledge and
experience, Valery is an human hype-detector. And unfortunately, there are a
lot of people in this business who over hype their products, either through
condemning good scopes others sell or promising results their scopes do not
deliver.

Understand, I do not always agree with Valery. We had a running argument
over the usefulness of MV filters and comparisons with the Chromacor. This
was on the Chinese-Refractor group at Yahoo. It lasted for quite a while and
got very specific. And yes, I would have preferred it if he had been less
abrasive. But even so, it was a part of my own ongoing education and he
forced me to be very careful and precise in my statements. And in the end, I
think we both had an appreciation for each other's knowledge. (of course, in
my case and his, it was him appreciating how little I know, and me
appreciating how much more he knows! :-) At different times, I think
each of us thought the other was trying to snow the other. But we slowly
resolved that each was working to be honest. And with that, we learned to
coexist and even respect each other.

But there are some out there (and even here) who are not being fully honest.
And I know no way of arousing Valery than to post a dishonest optics claim.
When that happens, he is like a BS-seeking missile. True, it is not always a
pretty sight. But it does blow up the BS.

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

Pierre Vandevenne wrote in message news:

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that apo cost much less than
that small chromathing addon you sell?

Boy, you must really be using fancy fancy glass in that thing. Or be
even _more_ dishonest than the sellers of those overpriced apos...
but of course it can't be.

Your argument is something akin to criticising the price of a Nagler
eyepiece because it costs as much or more than the scope it's used in.

No, it is not, simply because Mr. Nagler doesn't go around criticising
his competition. You just edited Valery's post out of the response.
Stupid basic usenet trick.

Help me understand - Al Nagler can ask any price he wants, just as
long as he isn't critical of his competition? Surely you aren't
suggesting Valery should price the Chromacor based on the value of the
scope the customer is using it in. That was part of my point. No
tricks here - I was replying to *your* post, not Valerys.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

Comparing the prices of oranges to tires. I prefer to evaluate a
product and its pricing based on it's own merits - not on the company
owners usenet manners. I graduated logic 101 (and recommend it
highly).

But since you speak of dishonesty -
that wasn't really the point of your post anyway. You just wanted to
get in a dig at Valery. I'd suggest you lurk until you have something
useful to contribute. You'll look a lot less foolish that way.

Aaaaah, all we needed was another CENSORED to contribute a very very
useful post such as this one to the thread when it was dying.

Don't address my criticisms - just change the subject. Your very
useful post appeared in this thread before mine did. I simply
responded to it.

You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.

I insulted no one. Who are "you guys"? I await your cogent, well
reasoned, and logical response.

Mike in Oregon

Pierre Vandevenne wrote in message news:

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that apo cost much less than
that small chromathing addon you sell?

Boy, you must really be using fancy fancy glass in that thing. Or be
even _more_ dishonest than the sellers of those overpriced apos...
but of course it can't be.

Your argument is something akin to criticising the price of a Nagler
eyepiece because it costs as much or more than the scope it's used in.

No, it is not, simply because Mr. Nagler doesn't go around criticising
his competition. You just edited Valery's post out of the response.
Stupid basic usenet trick.

Help me understand - Al Nagler can ask any price he wants, just as
long as he isn't critical of his competition? Surely you aren't
suggesting Valery should price the Chromacor based on the value of the
scope the customer is using it in. That was part of my point. No
tricks here - I was replying to *your* post, not Valerys.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

Comparing the prices of oranges to tires. I prefer to evaluate a
product and its pricing based on it's own merits - not on the company
owners usenet manners. I graduated logic 101 (and recommend it
highly).

But since you speak of dishonesty -
that wasn't really the point of your post anyway. You just wanted to
get in a dig at Valery. I'd suggest you lurk until you have something
useful to contribute. You'll look a lot less foolish that way.

Aaaaah, all we needed was another CENSORED to contribute a very very
useful post such as this one to the thread when it was dying.

Don't address my criticisms - just change the subject. Your very
useful post appeared in this thread before mine did. I simply
responded to it.

You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.

I insulted no one. Who are "you guys"? I await your cogent, well
reasoned, and logical response.

Mike in Oregon

(Mike Burley) wrote in
om:

Help me understand - Al Nagler can ask any price he wants, just as
long as he isn't critical of his competition? Surely you aren't

You really don't want to get it... Al Nagler is not insulting other people
around. Therefore, he doesn't get flak for insulting people around. Valery
is rude, therefore he gets flak. I find some of Televue's products grossly
overpriced - I own about 10 of them now, and their equivalents to compare
them to, but Mr Nagler is not going to get flamed for attacking
competitors.

suggesting Valery should price the Chromacor based on the value of the
scope the customer is using it in. That was part of my point. No
tricks here - I was replying to *your* post, not Valerys.

My post was in a thread and only meaningful in a thread.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

Comparing the prices of oranges to tires. I prefer to evaluate a
product and its pricing based on it's own merits - not on the company
owners usenet manners.

I did not do that. I just said that starting rumours was relatively easy.

So should the pricing of products be based on their merits?

Do you take any medication? Or someone in your family? How much is that
worth to you?

Our product saved the net, again, by allowing a timely analysis of all the
worms that were floating around, just as it did it with Code Red.

How much is that worth?

(I am not joking here, but this is beyond the scope of the newsgroup, do
not hesitate mailing me in private for references and details if you are
interested)


You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.


I insulted no one.

quoteYou'll look a lot less foolish that way/quote

Who are "you guys"? I await your cogent, well
reasoned, and logical response.

See the above quote. No other master logician than yourself is needed.

Btw, how does one go from master logician to cheerleader?

--
Pierre Vandevenne - DataRescue - www.datarescue.com
Home of the IDA Pro Disassembler - leader in hostile code analysis
Home of PhotoRescue - risk free data recovery for digital media.

(Mike Burley) wrote in
om:

Help me understand - Al Nagler can ask any price he wants, just as
long as he isn't critical of his competition? Surely you aren't

You really don't want to get it... Al Nagler is not insulting other people
around. Therefore, he doesn't get flak for insulting people around. Valery
is rude, therefore he gets flak. I find some of Televue's products grossly
overpriced - I own about 10 of them now, and their equivalents to compare
them to, but Mr Nagler is not going to get flamed for attacking
competitors.

suggesting Valery should price the Chromacor based on the value of the
scope the customer is using it in. That was part of my point. No
tricks here - I was replying to *your* post, not Valerys.

My post was in a thread and only meaningful in a thread.

You've made a category mistake.

What's a category mistake? I think you should revise rethorics 101.

Comparing the prices of oranges to tires. I prefer to evaluate a
product and its pricing based on it's own merits - not on the company
owners usenet manners.

I did not do that. I just said that starting rumours was relatively easy.

So should the pricing of products be based on their merits?

Do you take any medication? Or someone in your family? How much is that
worth to you?

Our product saved the net, again, by allowing a timely analysis of all the
worms that were floating around, just as it did it with Code Red.

How much is that worth?

(I am not joking here, but this is beyond the scope of the newsgroup, do
not hesitate mailing me in private for references and details if you are
interested)


You guys just can't resist insulting people, right? Go ahead, doesn't
bother me.


I insulted no one.

quoteYou'll look a lot less foolish that way/quote

Who are "you guys"? I await your cogent, well
reasoned, and logical response.

See the above quote. No other master logician than yourself is needed.

Btw, how does one go from master logician to cheerleader?

--
Pierre Vandevenne - DataRescue - www.datarescue.com
Home of the IDA Pro Disassembler - leader in hostile code analysis
Home of PhotoRescue - risk free data recovery for digital media.

"Pierre Vandevenne" wrote in message

Our product saved the net, again, by allowing a timely analysis of all the
worms that were floating around, just as it did it with Code Red.

"saved the net, again"?

Wasn't hype one of the key elements of this thread?

;-)

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

"Pierre Vandevenne" wrote in message

Our product saved the net, again, by allowing a timely analysis of all the
worms that were floating around, just as it did it with Code Red.

"saved the net, again"?

Wasn't hype one of the key elements of this thread?

;-)

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

But there are some out there (and even here) who are not being fully
honest.
And I know no way of arousing Valery than to post a dishonest optics
claim.
When that happens, he is like a BS-seeking missile. True, it is not
always a
pretty sight. But it does blow up the BS.

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor

Yes Chuck , not a pretty sight sometimes ,but as you say
Valery does seem to expose optical claims that are over the line. I
enjoy his posts most of the time and feel he knows what he is talking
about in detail. Some of the threads get boring after awhile when no
real information comes from the focus of his questions . If one cannot
back up there statements with informed facts when called on to do so
it makes some people wonder why. Picture a kinder ,gentler Valery
setting before the fire place, pipe lit musing over his old posts on
SAA with a friend saying :That used to be me before my business
success took off and a few years mellowed me out too the sweet old guy
you see today. Well mabye not , but we can always hope.
Leonard
Leonard