Beagle ... alas

Henry Spencer wrote:

Someone went overboard with trying to cram items into the second
generation vehicles. That is not uncommon. It is a generally accepted
fact in the building industry that the second house that someone
builds is their worst house as they try to do too much for what they
have. The first house is always conservative. It's the second when
they think they know what they are doing that they go overboard...



The software business has a name for this: "Second System Effect". Same
principle. Quite a few nightmares of software complexity have been the
designers' second try at a system of that type.


On the other hand, there are a lot of things that you do on the first
try that don't work as well as you thought they would, and the
experience can lead to improvements in the second attempt- if Lockheed
were to have had the opportunity to build the A-12/SR-71 all over again
(the SR-71 itself incorporating many hard-learned lessons from the
failed CL-400 "Suntan" project), they would have probably gone with
stainless steel rather than titanium for the aircraft's structure- they
found out the hard way that titanium was nowhere near as easy to work
with as they thought.
In the same way, the Space Shuttle would probably have been quite
differently if we had it to do all over again after years of experience
with he one we have, and it's failings, particularly in the aspects of
design robustness and safety, as well as economy of operation.
If it were redone today, I'd bet it would include either liquid fueled
boosters, or solid fueled ones that were capable of shutdown like the
TitanIII/MOL design; single or multiple escape capsules for the crew
with some sort of heat shielding; and a method of separating the orbiter
from the stack in an emergency. It would probably be larger and heavier
to perform the same mission, but built to be both simpler and tougher;
and designed to require less costly turn-around maintenance.
I grew up in a house that was the first effort by some carpenters at
house building- it had some very peculiar features, including light
switches that did nothing, and others that worked like some sort of
primitive logic device when hooked in pairs (so that turning one on or
off might or might not turn on or off the light in question) and an
internally braced wall that relied upon long rods extending back to
anchor points concealed under the center of the lawn to allow a 12 inch
thick wall- that appeared to be unsupported externally- to contain a
five-foot-deep layer of soil- this worked for a while, but the anchor
rods rusted through after a few decades, and the fact that the dirt
couldn't move outward during the seasonal freezing and thawing meant
that slowly but surely it began to crush the foundation inwards.

Pat

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...


Henry Spencer wrote:

Someone went overboard with trying to cram items into the second
generation vehicles. That is not uncommon. It is a generally accepted
fact in the building industry that the second house that someone
builds is their worst house as they try to do too much for what they
have. The first house is always conservative. It's the second when
they think they know what they are doing that they go overboard...



The software business has a name for this: "Second System Effect". Same
principle. Quite a few nightmares of software complexity have been the
designers' second try at a system of that type.


On the other hand, there are a lot of things that you do on the first
try that don't work as well as you thought they would, and the
experience can lead to improvements in the second attempt- if Lockheed
were to have had the opportunity to build the A-12/SR-71 all over again
(the SR-71 itself incorporating many hard-learned lessons from the
failed CL-400 "Suntan" project), they would have probably gone with
stainless steel rather than titanium for the aircraft's structure- they
found out the hard way that titanium was nowhere near as easy to work
with as they thought.
In the same way, the Space Shuttle would probably have been quite
differently if we had it to do all over again after years of experience
with he one we have, and it's failings, particularly in the aspects of
design robustness and safety, as well as economy of operation.
If it were redone today, I'd bet it would include either liquid fueled
boosters, or solid fueled ones that were capable of shutdown like the
TitanIII/MOL design; single or multiple escape capsules for the crew
with some sort of heat shielding; and a method of separating the orbiter
from the stack in an emergency. It would probably be larger and heavier
to perform the same mission, but built to be both simpler and tougher;
and designed to require less costly turn-around maintenance.
I grew up in a house that was the first effort by some carpenters at
house building- it had some very peculiar features, including light
switches that did nothing,

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who tells
a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch that
doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to guess
what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me to stop
it.

and others that worked like some sort of
primitive logic device when hooked in pairs (so that turning one on or
off might or might not turn on or off the light in question)

Could this be a three-way switch, which allows more than one switch to
control a light? Or did some moron wire them in series?
--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission (ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...


Henry Spencer wrote:

Someone went overboard with trying to cram items into the second
generation vehicles. That is not uncommon. It is a generally accepted
fact in the building industry that the second house that someone
builds is their worst house as they try to do too much for what they
have. The first house is always conservative. It's the second when
they think they know what they are doing that they go overboard...



The software business has a name for this: "Second System Effect". Same
principle. Quite a few nightmares of software complexity have been the
designers' second try at a system of that type.


On the other hand, there are a lot of things that you do on the first
try that don't work as well as you thought they would, and the
experience can lead to improvements in the second attempt- if Lockheed
were to have had the opportunity to build the A-12/SR-71 all over again
(the SR-71 itself incorporating many hard-learned lessons from the
failed CL-400 "Suntan" project), they would have probably gone with
stainless steel rather than titanium for the aircraft's structure- they
found out the hard way that titanium was nowhere near as easy to work
with as they thought.
In the same way, the Space Shuttle would probably have been quite
differently if we had it to do all over again after years of experience
with he one we have, and it's failings, particularly in the aspects of
design robustness and safety, as well as economy of operation.
If it were redone today, I'd bet it would include either liquid fueled
boosters, or solid fueled ones that were capable of shutdown like the
TitanIII/MOL design; single or multiple escape capsules for the crew
with some sort of heat shielding; and a method of separating the orbiter
from the stack in an emergency. It would probably be larger and heavier
to perform the same mission, but built to be both simpler and tougher;
and designed to require less costly turn-around maintenance.
I grew up in a house that was the first effort by some carpenters at
house building- it had some very peculiar features, including light
switches that did nothing,

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who tells
a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch that
doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to guess
what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me to stop
it.

and others that worked like some sort of
primitive logic device when hooked in pairs (so that turning one on or
off might or might not turn on or off the light in question)

Could this be a three-way switch, which allows more than one switch to
control a light? Or did some moron wire them in series?
--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission (ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

Scott Hedrick wrote:

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who
tells a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch
that doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to
guess what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me
to stop it.

I think that was probably Steven Wright.

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
Remove invalid nonsense for email.

Scott Hedrick wrote:

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who
tells a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch
that doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to
guess what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me
to stop it.

I think that was probably Steven Wright.

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
Remove invalid nonsense for email.

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
...
"Mary Shafer" wrote in message
...
I'd stop
bringing in homemade goodies, like sticky rolls, if they did. Being a
good baker confers a certain immunity.

There's a reason why the folks that handle state land auctions go out of
their way for my family- baked goods, especially made-from-scratch. Almost
every time I visit, I bring bread, cookies or brownies.

Years ago RPI had a "Not Necessarily the Home Coming Queen" contest.

Among the events was a parade where various prizes could be won. One of the
prizes was "best bribe".

So, for the group I was involved in, I made a homemade apple pie and picked
up some milk and cookies.

When we reached the judges, we hopped off the float, pulled out the pie,
sliced it, served it, poured the milk and handed out the cookies.

There was no contest. We got the best bribe prize hands down. (in fact we
got all prizes for the parade that day except for best Greek float (we
didn't qualify) and loudest (Pep band won that.)


--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission
(ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
...
"Mary Shafer" wrote in message
...
I'd stop
bringing in homemade goodies, like sticky rolls, if they did. Being a
good baker confers a certain immunity.

There's a reason why the folks that handle state land auctions go out of
their way for my family- baked goods, especially made-from-scratch. Almost
every time I visit, I bring bread, cookies or brownies.

Years ago RPI had a "Not Necessarily the Home Coming Queen" contest.

Among the events was a parade where various prizes could be won. One of the
prizes was "best bribe".

So, for the group I was involved in, I made a homemade apple pie and picked
up some milk and cookies.

When we reached the judges, we hopped off the float, pulled out the pie,
sliced it, served it, poured the milk and handed out the cookies.

There was no contest. We got the best bribe prize hands down. (in fact we
got all prizes for the parade that day except for best Greek float (we
didn't qualify) and loudest (Pep band won that.)


--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission
(ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
news

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who
tells
a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch that
doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to guess
what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me to stop
it.

Steven Wright.

He also has a map of the world. 1" = 1". Took his last summer vacation
just to fold it.

He also has a collection of seashells. He keeps it on beaches all over the
world. Perhaps you've seen it?

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
news

There's a comic, whose name I forget at the moment (Steven ----), who
tells
a joke: I moved into a new apartment last week. I found a switch that
doesn't do anything. On Sunday, I kept flipping it while trying to guess
what it does. I got a call from a woman in West Germany telling me to stop
it.

Steven Wright.

He also has a map of the world. 1" = 1". Took his last summer vacation
just to fold it.

He also has a collection of seashells. He keeps it on beaches all over the
world. Perhaps you've seen it?

In article ,
says...
Henry Spencer wrote:
The software business has a name for this: "Second System Effect". Same
principle.
(the SR-71 itself incorporating many hard-learned lessons from the
failed CL-400 "Suntan" project),

Consider the U-2 as the first system ("system" == Skunk Works spy plane
sophisticated enough to overfly the USSR). CL-400 would then be the
second system, and it shows the hubris common in the second system
effect. The Blackbird would then be the third system, showing a bit of
humility.


In the same way, the Space Shuttle would probably have been quite
differently if we had it to do all over again after years of experience
with he one we have,

North American's first manned spaceship was the Apollo CSM. Their second
was the Shuttle. The early Shuttle goals of being the one and only
universal, cheap, reusable spacecraft shows the the hubris of the second
system effect.
--
Kevin Willoughby lid

Imagine that, a FROG ON-OFF switch, hardly the work
for test pilots. -- Mike Collins