...Faster Than Light is a pipe-dream

And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.
The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them, and
they'll never see us. Even though both are looking, we'll
only see each other's distant past.

For questions of truth and meaning there's only thought.
Common understanding is the only thing that might
exceed the speed of light.


Imho.


Jonathan


s

On Apr 29, 7:24*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.
The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them, and
they'll never see us. Even though both are looking, we'll
only see each other's distant past.

Horsefeathers. The next couple generations of space telescopes will
tell us if there's life in the few nearest star systems; a few dozen
light years isn't "distant".

Our radio transmissions are nearly a century old, and if other life
had started at near the same time, we'd have heard the early parts of
theirs by now which we haven't.

For questions of truth and meaning there's only thought.
Common understanding is the only thing that might
exceed the speed of light.

You can't understand what you can't at least get evidence of.


Mark L. Fergerson

On Apr 29, 9:20*pm, alien8er wrote:
On Apr 29, 7:24*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.
The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them, and
they'll never see us. Even though both are looking, we'll
only see each other's distant past.

* Horsefeathers. The next couple generations of space telescopes will
tell us if there's life in the few nearest star systems; a few dozen
light years isn't "distant".

* Our radio transmissions are nearly a century old, and if other life
had started at near the same time, we'd have heard the early parts of
theirs by now which we haven't.

For questions of truth and meaning there's only thought.
Common understanding is the only thing that might
exceed the speed of light.

* You can't understand what you can't at least get evidence of.

* Mark L. Fergerson

On Apr 29, 9:20*pm, alien8er wrote:
On Apr 29, 7:24*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.
The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them, and
they'll never see us. Even though both are looking, we'll
only see each other's distant past.

* Horsefeathers. The next couple generations of space telescopes will
tell us if there's life in the few nearest star systems; a few dozen
light years isn't "distant".

* Our radio transmissions are nearly a century old, and if other life
had started at near the same time, we'd have heard the early parts of
theirs by now which we haven't.

For questions of truth and meaning there's only thought.
Common understanding is the only thing that might
exceed the speed of light.

* You can't understand what you can't at least get evidence of.

* Mark L. Fergerson

Double Horsefeathers. Your negative mindset is noted.

~ BG

On Apr 30, 4:29*pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Apr 29, 9:20*pm, alien8er wrote:



On Apr 29, 7:24*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.
The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them, and
they'll never see us. Even though both are looking, we'll
only see each other's distant past.

See, this is a blatant non sequitur. If a descendant of Hubble gives
us direct evidence of Et life, just because it's evidence from the
recent past (say four and a bit years ago from the Centauri system)
mean it's not "proof"? Why the hell not?

* Horsefeathers. The next couple generations of space telescopes will
tell us if there's life in the few nearest star systems; a few dozen
light years isn't "distant".

* Our radio transmissions are nearly a century old, and if other life
had started at near the same time, we'd have heard the early parts of
theirs by now which we haven't.

For questions of truth and meaning there's only thought.
Common understanding is the only thing that might
exceed the speed of light.

* You can't understand what you can't at least get evidence of.

* Mark L. Fergerson

Double Horsefeathers. *Your negative mindset is noted.

What "negative mindset" are you blithering about? Firstly, I assume
there is plenty of ET life and just because we have no direct evidence
of it yet doesn't necessarily mean there never will be. I also assume
we just haven't looked for the proper evidence yet. We haven't been at
it very long, you know. Once we figure out how to detect other life
we'll know how _they_ can detect _us_ meaning we'll have something
that we can try to modulate with information we desire to communicate
to them, opening the possibility of dialogue. I assume we _will_ do so
perhaps by tripping over a method accidentally while trying to do
something else; the history of science is littered with serendipitous
discoveries.

What we _won't_ likely use to further such dialogue, at least at
first, is radio because we know damn well we're much farther advanced
in that tech than any other species within several dozen lightyears.

Even if we _do_ manage to tell somebody Out There how to use radio,
every radio communication is "from the past" according to range
divided by the speed of light. But that's not really a problem.

And ultimately, understanding by definition requires communicating
the material to be understood; one can only interpret what one can
sense.


Mark L. Fergerson

On Apr 30, 5:24*am, "Jonathan" wrote:
And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

That's utter bull or at the least completely unsubstantiated.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.

Highly improbable unless by the same time you mean "within the same
billion years".

The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them,

Life has existed on this earth for billions of years.

On Apr 29, 11:29*pm, Michael Grosberg
wrote:
On Apr 30, 5:24*am, "Jonathan" wrote:

And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

That's utter bull or at the least completely unsubstantiated.

Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.

Highly improbable unless by the same time you mean "within the same
billion years".

The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them,

Life has existed on this earth for billions of years.

But only the least bit intelligent as of long after the very last ice
age this Eden/Earth w/moon is ever going to see.

~ BG

"Michael Grosberg" wrote in message
...
On Apr 30, 5:24 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
And we'll never talk to aliens.

Because the universe makes sense!
Because the inherent abilities of the universe
to create and evolve are so pervasive and
relentless, life emerges straight away everywhere.

That's utter bull or at the least completely unsubstantiated.


Life started on this planet just about as soon as it cooled.
Our only 'proof' is life begins as soon as possible.
And it's taken roughly ...a fourth... the age of the universe for
intelligence to evolve.


Life blooms everywhere at about the same time.

Highly improbable unless by the same time you mean "within the same
billion years".

The new discoveries of dark matter and energy has changed
the picture. Dark energy evolved, or become prominent, at
almost the same time life on earth began. Or at about the
same time the universe became matter dominated.
Which roughly coincides with the evolution of our galaxy.
It appears now that the conditions for life became suitable
long after the start of the universe, and at about the
same time.

It would seem rather obvious to me that the closer a system
is to us, the more likely life, there and here, evolves
along side each other. Not one vastly predating another.


The universe is teeming with life but we'll never prove it.
Since telescopes see the past, we'll never see them,

Life has existed on this earth for billions of years.

But if an alien race were looking as us now from afar, they
would at best see a planet with microbial life. And the
Mars rover has made this next point clear, the outward signs
of very early life is very hard to distinguish geological
processes. For instance, seeing mars covered in iron
could be from the interaction of water and minerals.
Or it could be the byproduct of the very first life
on the Earth, sulfate-reducing bacteria, which leaves
behind iron deposits.

My point is more that, by the time any civilization learns
how to travel great distances, they'll have figured this
stuff out already. And made the necessity of an actual
journey moot.

And once a civilization figures these questions out, they'll
also have figured out how to live in an ecosystem
in a sustainable way. Making the need for colonizing also
.....moot.


Jonathan

s

On May 5, 3:12*am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Michael Grosberg" wrote in message

...
On Apr 30, 5:24 am, "Jonathan" wrote:


Life started on this planet just about as soon as it cooled.
Our only 'proof' is life begins as soon as possible.
And it's taken roughly ...a fourth... the age of the universe for
intelligence to evolve.

Look, everything you've said has been covered by the drake equation.
Here are the parameters most relevant to our discussion:

How long does it take for life to arise? we can peg that at a time
span of billions. so there could be hundreds of millions of years
difference between planets.

How long does it take for multicellular life to appear? - again,
hundreds of millions of years. It could possibly still move a hundred
million years this way or that.

How long does it take for intelligent life to evolve from simpler life
forms? - it's taken 300 million years for us, but could possibly take
a hundred million more, or maybe 50 million less.

So far we have no reason to assume intelligent life in the galaxy is
concurrent. It could have evolved millions and millions of years ago
on other planets or it may have not evolved at all.

How long does it take for signals to arrive form one culture to
another?

Look, the milky way galaxy is about 100,000 light years across.
Signals therefore take anywhere between 4.3 and 100,0000 years
(actually a bit less since we're not at the edge, let's say 75,000) to
arrive here. So, any intelligent culture living within a 100LY radius
could see evidence of a technological culture on earth. The radius
expands by one light year every year. The longer our culture exists
the bigger the chances.

How long does an intelligent culture last?
We have no idea *at all* - could be millions of years, could be
millenia or less. But it's more than a hundred and could possibly be
much more. For all we know, a technological culture could go on
indefinitely.

To sum it up, you've got so many parameters you could plug any kind of
numbers and reach any conclusion you want. Your own conclusions assume
life arise everywhere at *exactly* the same time - within the same
100,000 years. If we limit ourselves to contact with intelligences in
our local neighborhood - say a 1000LY radius - that narrows the margin
to a 1000 years. In terms of planetary and biological evolution, this
is less than an eye blink. If we last for a thousand years more as a
technological culture, anyone within that sphere can detect us. If
what you say is correct and life is that prevalent (personally I don't
believe it but it is YOUR assumption) - then they are bound to detect
us.

I believe the chances of finding another intelligent culture and
contacting them are slim, but not for any of the reasons you suggest.

Michael Grosberg wrote:
On May 5, 3:12 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Michael Grosberg" wrote in message

...
On Apr 30, 5:24 am, "Jonathan" wrote:


Life started on this planet just about as soon as it cooled.
Our only 'proof' is life begins as soon as possible.
And it's taken roughly ...a fourth... the age of the universe for
intelligence to evolve.

Look, everything you've said has been covered by the drake equation.
Here are the parameters most relevant to our discussion:

How long does it take for life to arise? we can peg that at a time
span of billions. so there could be hundreds of millions of years
difference between planets.

How long does it take for multicellular life to appear? - again,
hundreds of millions of years. It could possibly still move a hundred
million years this way or that.

A recent paper indicates that relatively complex multicellular life may
have evolved a **LOT** earlier than we thought; forms that had been
tagged as Cambrian now appear to date back to the (drawing a blank...
Acherozoan?) era about 1-1.5 *BILLION* years farther back.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com