Everybody's Going to the Moon

"Paul F. Dietz" wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: So if you want to talk about actual commercial use of lunar resources
: (for example), this treaty is a bigger barrier than all the capital,
: infrastructure, and technology barriers that exist.
:
:Is it? Is it necessary to claim sovereignty over a resource
:before it can be commercially exploited?

Pretty much, yes.

Whose ownership laws apply to the resources you want to use (and your
factories, for that matter)? What prevents a State from just claiming
a right to a share of everything?

What happens when you put in your lunar factories, dig up a bunch of
soil, get the resources out of it, and go to ship it? Cuba or Togo or
somebody claims you can't do it because you don't 'own' what you used.
Then they claim you can't have your factory there.

No business is going to risk capital under those conditions.

--
"Yet here I sit, years of evildoing under my belt, and still a
happy camper."
-- Alan Shore, "Boston Legal"

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

:On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 14:30:59 GMT, in a place far, far away, Fred J.
:McCall made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
:such a way as to indicate that:
:
:::The 1967 Outer Space Treaty forbids any nation to claim sovereignty
::ver any celestial body.
::
::Can you claim parts?
::
::No.
::
::If not, this treaty is DEEPLY flawed.
::
::Yes. So?
:
:So if you want to talk about actual commercial use of lunar resources
:(for example), this treaty is a bigger barrier than all the capital,
:infrastructure, and technology barriers that exist.
:
:Not really. It would be better if we were to withdraw, but it doesn't
reclude property rights, per se, just national sovereignty. Many
:space law experts think that it's possible to mine resources for
rivate use, including sale, under it. The problem is that the lack
f sovereignty makes it more difficult to get your government to
:defend the claim.

Whose property rights law applies? No company is going to jump into
this big a risk.

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Fred J. McCall wrote:

:Is it? Is it necessary to claim sovereignty over a resource
:before it can be commercially exploited?

Pretty much, yes.

Ah. So that's why no one is fishing in international waters.
Thanks.

Paul

"Paul F. Dietz" wrote:

:Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: :Is it? Is it necessary to claim sovereignty over a resource
: :before it can be commercially exploited?
:
: Pretty much, yes.
:
:Ah. So that's why no one is fishing in international waters.
:Thanks.

Stupid analogy, Paul. You might want to check out the difference in
the treaties that govern use of the sea (which is fairly easy to get
to) and those governing the use of space resources (which is much
harder and requires much greater investment to get to to realize the
initial profits in the first place).

You might also ask yourself where the US fishing fleets are these
days.

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

With damn good reason everyone's going to the moon;
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...m/thread/1380=
43d113cf0840/437511cf5e7ad2ec#437511cf5e7ad2ec
Fortunately, for the likes of China and India can really utilize that
capacity for establishing their LSE-CM/ISS. I believe they can
individually afford it to boot.

It's also another good thing that Russia no longer gives a flying hock
puck about American interest in space or about continuing the grand
cold-war ruse/sting of the century, especially if it's going to take
away any portion of their fair share in the LSE and related star-wars
rights, and/or negatively impact the future taking of He3 from the
moon.

On the Venus-Express side of this argument, there's the need of
establishing the VL2 (TRACE-II) transponder and signal relay platform
on behalf of keeps us interfaced with whomever's still on the hot and
nasty deck. That alone should become worth trillions.

I can't but wonder whom's going to become the first trillionaire upon
Earth?

Since my PC is still being so thoughtfully infected by best of the best
NSA/MI6 spooks, as well as experiencing loads of online delays while
others tap into and/or block whatever I'm doing, in fact there's so
much of their MS accommodated back-door mainstream status quo incest
sperm as DNA poison on my hard-drive, so much so that if I exported my
PC contents into the internet I believe that mine alone could bring
down the entire global network within hours, and/or it'll somehow
infect the world with a worse form of mad-cow.

In spite of their ongoing and orchestrated efforts at sucking the very
life out of humanity, fortunately I do have file backups and if need be
I'll go into a local library or University in order to continue my
personal quest of overthrowing this snookered world with the truth and
nothing but the truth, that is unless you've got a better idea.

Actually, for getting myself somewhat back on topic of what our moon is
good for, it's looking as though a lunar solar farm that's using a
combination of sterling solar/thermal energy conversion, mylar-mirrors
incorporating PV conversion cells, and of course direct thermal
heat-exchange storage and subsequent redistribution for whatever
secondary process heating should contribute at the very least 750
watts/m2, and there's obviously no limits as to the coverage of which
solar farms can occupy, as there's not a tree-hugger in sight.

Certainly the near vacuum of the unterraformed moon and/or of otherwise
being nicely insulated by way of R-1024/m worth of basalt
micro-balloons or just via that magic clumping moon-dirt that's
selectively retro-reflective yet somehow non-reactive according to the
NASA/Apollo wizards like Jay Utah, in spite of all that's seemingly
going against our moon, it is going to yield a fair amount of lunar
surface area for obtaining solar energy that can be effectively stored
into massive gyros (especially by way of those absolutely massive
counter-rotating gyros situated interactively at nearly zero-G at ME-L1
zone that's along the tether that's securing the CM/ISS and of it's
tether dipole element that's streaming off towards Earth) and/or
otherwise into well insulated thermal-wells is certainly going to save
the day if you're planning upon staying the lunar night.

Of directly focused raw solar energy, as onto a process of
melting/boiling basalt should obtain nearly a full kw/m2. Thereby each
km X km robotic solar farm should contribute a MW of basalt pot melting
energy that's going to produce the most absolutely pure fibers that are
of the least amount contaminated with the likes of nasty O2 and N2,
thus the final GPa results should become impressive to say the least. I
suppose the very same can be said of processing silica, of which raw
silica should also coexist somewhere upon the moon.

Onward to the other somewhat important topic of 'Life on Venus'
As certified as a village idiot that I supposedly am, it seems that I
do recall in high school being informed as to how hot and nasty Venus
was, thus never a word as to any possible form of life to being had.
However, it seems I don't recall being informed that the laws of
physics do not apply to the likes of Venus, nor that only conditional
laws of physics apply to our moon.

Apparently there's been new and improved laws of physics that actually
involves energy-in being equal to energy-out, and that of the laws of
thermal dynamics wherever there's a compression of a given gas always
involves a transition of energy being converted into heat (at least up
until the point of said gas becoming a sufficient solid), or vise
versa, and of subsequently removing that pressure from a given volume
of compressed gas accomplishes the exact opposit, and I suppose that's
still why refrigeration works as well as air conditioning via any form
of gas that's compressible, heat-exchangeable and thus available for
extracting heat so that the pesky physics rule of energy-in =3D
energy-out.

I believe such a compressible gas can be that of freon, common air,
hydrogen and lo and behold CO2 seems to have represented another
perfectly sound element (in fact better than most freons) for that of
energy storage and thereby on-demand heat transfer. Oddly, in high
school we were never informed of such things, so perhaps the laws of
thermaldynamics simply didn't exist way back then, as that would make
perfect sense as to why we weren't being informed of what's possible
whenever you have an unlimited resource of energy and absolute loads of
CO2.

Speaking about available energy;
Mars absolutely sucks, Earth is some what so-so, our moon is absolutely
clumping-pay-dirt overloaded with energy and, it seems the likes of
Venus is entirely off the freaking scale.

Or perhaps this too is yet another one of those new law of physics,
that of kinetics as to what any moving volume of gas and that of what
must transpire as that volume and mass equalizes it's way through a
radial power turbine, or through just about any other form of turbine,
piston of rotor having a physical differential of displacement. As lo
and behold, on Venus there's 65+kg/m3 that's everywhere you'd care to
look, and hot-damn if there's not 4+bar/km and otherwise 10=B0K/km just
off the deck, whereas a 10 km differential represents nearly 40 bar and
100=B0K (especially potent if we're starting off somewhat below the
average or somewhat sealevel elevation, or otherwise well into their
nifty season of nighttime where instead of 92 bar we've got better than
97 bar to start off with).

Thus the real honest to God question with regard to Venus hasn't
actually been about where said energy shall come from, but as to how
many mega, giga or tera watts would you like?

So, what I'd be interested to know is where can I locate the sorts of
minion talents and resources in order to expand research upon the
possibilities of how some other forms of life (including whatever
imported ETs) could have been managing quite nicely right under our
pathetically dumbfounded noses?

Basic township that's situated upon Venus:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
Basic LSE (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Regards, Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS topics:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm

Henry Spencer wrote:

In article .com,
kert wrote:

To have some assurance that it would actually happen, the schedule would
need to be rather tighter, so that real momentum has built up by the time
the White House changes hands. (Although one cynic has suggested that if
we consider history, the key step is to assassinate Bush. :-))

I have only two words for you, Henry. "President Cheney"

Mike

-----
Michael Kent Apple II Forever!!
St. Peters, MO