Losers from Obama's proposed 2011 budget

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
John Doe wrote:


I ask again: how far along is the Orion thing ? I know they built a
scale mockup so they could dunk it in water for rescue tests.

And another one to test their lithobraking landing concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGcA7oL0QYo
Parachutes aren't the Constellation project's high point.

Pat

Yeah.... that looks like saba2gee to me. Didn't these boyz ever play with
Estes rockets? Sheesh!
The 2nd test looked better, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzfH9TZs8jI&NR=1
but that's so old early tech.

What is with:
the rectangular load? or
the design of the parachute causing such uncontrolled precession? and
the inadequate reduction in descent causing that painful impact?

It looks like a HS *science* project done by politicians who only had as
much experience with science as a HS student.
actually I think HS students interested in science could do better.
Couldn't they have at least had impact air bags?

OK OK... just messing wit ya here.



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"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
"Graystar" wrote in message

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in
message

1) ISS is in an awful orbit for assembly (too high an inclination.)
2) You can't stop at ISS w/o slowing down. And the easiest way to stop
is to simply use the atmosphere and at that point you might as well
re-enter.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On 1:
What of a cylinder unmanned LEO to HEO R/C manuevering vehicle to
transfer the components to higher orbit for mating?

That doesn't change the inclination issue. You're still losing a lot of
mass by launching from the surface to a high-inclination orbit. If you
want a space station to build stuff, put it at a much lower inclination
orbit.

Got it. So isn't there quite a lot of *stuff* in Equitorial orbit that
would be a problem for an assembly station?

that could be refueled by small packets for when the lunar module
returns, or a ISS to HEO vehicle manned & fueled to do the job?

On 2:
The unmanned HEO vehicle captures the returning module by matching
trajectory and since it has a full fuel tank, make the deceleration burn
for the module, to LEO protecting it and transferring it to ISS.

And if the HEO vehicle fails to link up to the returning module, then
what?

You've traded mass in the form of fuel and heatshield, which is fairly
low-tech for a higher tech solution with more failure modes.

Right, though either a better capture or effective deceleration method must
be worked out,
and soon, or problems will ensue...politics being only one of them.

Sometimes the easiest way would not be the best.

But often it is.

Agreed

It might be slower, but more efficient to take some longer steps until
newer vehicles are developed.
Since ISS needs to be spun up in it's decaying orbit continuously, it
would add to the ISS orbit preservation,
modules stay in orbit an could be parked again in HEO.
Science packs & crew Xfer to Shuttle or whatever reentry vehicle is
handy,
then back to Earth.

It would put the lie to the claim of "and expensive and useless mission"
or that it was safe or cushy...
and should the test mining experiment yield some useful samples, that
would be the proof of an ore claim as viable.

Just trying to apply some of the stuff I gathered from talking to R
Forward in 2001 or 2 at ISDC, and from F. I. Ordway III
May not be the way I'm thinking of it, but might inspire someone to
consider some options.

Seems to me if we can place a LabHab in a highly mineralized zone
for experiments in light r/c mining for profit,
setup a rectenna to test Sol Sat prototypes,
and perhaps later experiment with the elevator concept...
all in a place that would have little political impact...

Just tossing those in the hat.

--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

Thanks Greg.



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"Jeff Findley" wrote in message

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message

The wizards of smart figured out long ago that the amount of propellant
needed to brake back into LEO from a translunar trajectory to return to
ISS was a lot heavier than a heat shield.

Ah, yes, the magic known as orbital mechanics. Commonly taught by wizards
as 500 level aerospace engineering classes at magical places known as
universities.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon

Ah... yep!
grin
Thanks



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"Graystar" wrote in message
.. .

Limiting followups


Yes, we know that. Cut foreign aid.

Do you actually know how little that would save?

Remove the illegals bankrupting all the hospitals. Stop the banks from
being mismanaged by the Government.

I see you believe these lies. Any evidence? I thought not.

As for banks being mismanaged by the government, in case you hadn't noticed,
it was the LACK of regulations that got us into this mess.

Remember, Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae were NOT private companies. They were
Federally Managed GSEs.
Just who demanded that banks loan to people who could not pay back the
loans, then what Federal management HID that fact from the market?

Umm, the banks themselves? Seriously, who was offering zero down-payment
loands, interest only loans etc.

Who was then bundling these and selling them as Credit Default Swaps with no
accountability or regulations covering them.


Let's back to space now, shall we.


After decades of that we now reap the consequences of intentional theft.
Reorganization to get the Government OUT is necessary because they are not
competent managers.
To go after the 1000 spender like the space program and
ignore the Trillion Dollar spender Baleen Whale
Government Welfare programs & a failed corrupted education system in the
room... is laughable!
We need to dump the Rinos and the giant insane red-eyed Donkeys. Then you
*might* have a chance at fixing things.
But unless some rationality is re-established, the waste and corruption
disease will rot the whole country, if not the world.

NASA MANNED space deserves to see its budget ZEROED.
It should consider itself lucky ISS survived

The Monty Python general steps out from behind this post and says: "Now
stop that! It's Silly!"
grin


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Only!



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

"Graystar" wrote in message
.. .


That doesn't change the inclination issue. You're still losing a lot of
mass by launching from the surface to a high-inclination orbit. If you
want a space station to build stuff, put it at a much lower inclination
orbit.

Got it. So isn't there quite a lot of *stuff* in Equitorial orbit that
would be a problem for an assembly station?


Who said anything about an equitorial orbit? And even if they had, most of
the stuff is in GEO, not LEO. And even then, there's LOT of room. You do
the math.


You've traded mass in the form of fuel and heatshield, which is fairly
low-tech for a higher tech solution with more failure modes.

Right, though either a better capture or effective deceleration method
must be worked out,
and soon, or problems will ensue...politics being only one of them.

What problems? Heatshields are well understood technology, they work well.
Let's optimize cost/lb, not performence/lb.



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 7:31 pm, "Graystar" wrote:
wrote in message

On Feb 1, 10:12 am, Mike wrote:

the Congressional Black Caucus and many anti-science liberals got
their wishes....

Moon-travel boosters. The budget adds $6 billion to NASA's budget over
five years, extending the International Space Station, but it abandons
the Constellation program to return humans to the moon. Instead, it
directs NASA to invest in the development of U.S. commercial space
taxi services to ferry astronauts to the space station.

Mike, on the left and the right a large share of congress persons
are lawyers. And lawyers largely unschooled in science.
And plenty on the right are anti-science as well and often
have closeted KKK type attitudes. And even the ones
that have other education seem to fail to apply it i.e.
Bill Frist and the Terry Schive (Ms) case as an example.
Her brain was largely gone and it seemed so was his.
Her husband was right. Just look at the CAT scan.

******
Memorized that did you?
******

You've got to admit that wasn't Republican party's
best moment. Talk about cradle to grave government
leanings.

******
It should not have been politicized in the 1st place.
Since it was politicized it was not a good idea, given the press releases of
the testimonies of the attending staff,
to allow what happened. The "husband" is a really shady character all down
the line and it was transparently so.

Perhaps you support Euthanasia, but most of the rest of us consider it
amoral.
See how politics does not mix with morality now?
******

it is a leftist false Paradigm with False
attributions and therefore an Illogical conclusion. QED
Note it is the old South Dixiecrat left that still has KKK members in it
that migrated to DC.

And some of them jumped ship to become Dixieicans.

******
No difference IMO.
They still vote like slaveholders they just redefined who the slaves are to
be
and hold peace signs, and lie about their intentions.
******

To attribute the behavior and beliefs of the Slave holding Dixiecrats is
beyond absurd.
Even the South has reformed except for those involved in Politics still
mad
about who won the Civil War and their loss of "freedom" to own slaves.
Marxist-Lenonist-Maoist Bolshevic wannabes are going to have to find a new
excuse. This is not going to fly any more. They rebranded the side who
fought for freedom as the ones denying it.
The Yanks never did have KKK members.

Humm. You think on a north to south axis? How Eastern of you.

******
Nope, just following the current political reality.
******
In the West, the KKK did reach this far back in the teens and
twenties. Though it failed as a movement due to corruption and its followers
folded into the scab and some "patriot" organizations. These went to
commit white on white violence over the scab versus labor divide.
And it was dressed in progressive ideologue.

******
Don't buy that. I'd attribute that to Dixiecrat migrations settling in those
areas and exploiting the disenfranchized.
A logical strategem for those seeking to keep their belief system alive and
reinforced.
The west was a vacuum at that time and sucked them out of the South where it
was getting too hot for those
who did not turn into DC subversives.
******

KKK members never did, never will.

Do you really think you get off saying
"And plenty on the right are anti-science as well and often
have closeted KKK type attitudes. And even the ones
that have other education seem to fail to apply it"?

That is demonstrably false... and has as even less credibility than the
Global Warming hoax

Hmm............hoax you say. The poles are melting. By time
we are both safely dead in ~30 years the last polar bears may
only be in the zoo.


******
Haha! I wouldn't count on that. Just for fun: What kept melting the
Pleistocene Glacier cycles over millenia, my friend?
After all, you can't blame the Dinosaurs for their...um... Methane air
biscuit production... for that! grin
******

and the ALGORE invented the Internet claim.
Your bigotry against the "right" as you call it...
is showing.

I hope so and well as my bigotry toward the left as well ;-)

******
No so much. The Enviros are in sync with the Progressives. All are leftist
and fake data as well as draw ridiculous conclusions from too small of a
sample when considering large Earth cycles.
******

When did you stop beating your wife? Do you really believe we will fall
for
your childish elitist snobbish BS?

As opposed to your post-modern BS?

******
Eh... that was a rhetorical point, not so much an insult. But yeah. It is
all only BS until it works. Then it isn't BS anymore.
******

Wake up and smell the TEA PARTY.

The Tea P types clearly haven't bothered to read or have forgotten
their college 201 macroecon textbook. Look at the national debt level at the
end of WW2 or the lessons of the Great Depression. Granted
the lesson may be wrong but it is the best guess of the ivory tower
dancing monkeys. I won't trust Dick A to ......................

******
That's a sad little stereotype you got there.

IMO a little 201 macroecon can be a dangerous thing in the hands of someone
who can't even apply it to run a business
but rather sets himself up as a "wizard of smart" to dictate to those who
already know how.

KISS principle applies here too. Do what works. One does not dive to rise...
when you don't have fuel or wings or whatever.
******
Trouble is brewing for you and your
ilk.http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/rose/100131

******

Left to their own devices congress persons would likely try to
declare Pi and E to be the rounded to number of 3
after a conference committee session.

Not a fan of L or R.............Trig

******
Agreed on that. Once they become Washingtonians, the grey cells are lost
to
the religion of socialist politics.

Their brain cells are bought and paid for.


******
Quite so. Add Souls to that mix and you hit the mark on that one.
So we find those who will not accept the bribe and give a damn.
But if you're looking for Big Brother to solve all your problems, then there
will be another Civil War.
Someone will have to re-write a new econ book, I vote for F. A. Hayek & Tom
Sowell for that: that's just me though
******

Now if you're one of those looking to keep pushing for
Government control of everything and everyones lives cradle to grave, good
luck with that.

Often this "freedom" here in the States is just socialism for the
rich.

******
Well it may impact the "rich" more due to outright theft, but it hits
everyone all the way down.
Just because those on the lower end of the scale do not know their freedom
has just been stolen
doesn't mean it hasn't. When the profit of your labor is stolen, and you
have no disposable income to use for growth, you are a slave.
That is why our tax system is wrong and is being used for tyrannical
purpose.
******

Tax structure as I see it
is regressive if one includes ALL taxes and fees. Perhaps the motto
is to "tax poverty so there will be less of it." Granted, I am hardly
impressed with some aspects of the EU which I suspect is at its zenith.
Then again, if you get sick there as a citizen and are a lower working
class bloke you'll likely get at least somewhat decent care without going
into complete proverty.

******
Hospital emergency rooms don't turn away people now, with the exception for
overcrowding.
Gee... wonder how that happened? Could it be illegal Invaders! Naaaa...
that's just nuts... right?
California, Arizona, Florida don't have any problems with illegal invaders
at all! No financial impact whatsoever on the HC system, eh?
BTW, EU is having similar problems as we are with invaders,
so that bloke's not going to get that care all that fast and is more likely
to die before the appointments.
....Reality is not a nice lady... when you don't treat her nice... and she is
letting us know it in no uncertain terms.
******

"Never trust anyone over the age of 30".. LOL................Trig

******
That's the Recipe for Logan's Run
******

Disclaimer: I consider society beyond reform so.........

******
Unless fundamental laws are enforced: in particular starting with ejecting
the invaders and ejecting the proven irresponsible spendthrifts,
then any reform is doomed to fail.
Borders, Language, Cultu First.
No sane American wants a police state.
No sane American should want a Big Brother Nanny.

"Freedom" has no meaning of itself.
There are always restrictions, be they legal, genetic, or physical.
If you don't believe me, try to chew a radio signal.

The number of people who agree or disagree with you
has absolutely no bearing on whether you're "right".
The universe has a way of deciding that for itself.

Thanks for the conversation.
Graystar
******



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Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:

Of course to he didn't know about Van Allen radiation belts which means you
can't spend a lot of time slowing down to get back into LEO.

Considering the number of rocket engines those things had on them, you
could probably slow them down to orbital speed in under a minute:
http://lpod.wikispaces.com/file/view...-Apr25-08a.jpg
Were you thinking of the parasol ion-powered Mars ships?
His space station in 1,730-kilometer-high polar orbit was a non-starter
due to radiation though.

Pat

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
"Graystar" wrote in message

Limiting followups


Yes, we know that. Cut foreign aid.

Do you actually know how little that would save?

A dollar here, a dollar there. So cut the welfare program entitlements and
the elected official salaries.
They should not be making 6 figure incomes.

Remove the illegals bankrupting all the hospitals. Stop the banks from
being mismanaged by the Government.

I see you believe these lies. Any evidence? I thought not.

Um Yeah. I do have evidence. My people are in the medical front lines.
Have you not been watching the news?

As for banks being mismanaged by the government, in case you hadn't
noticed, it was the LACK of regulations that got us into this mess.

Nope. Lack of investigation and law enforcement due to complicity and
political retribution fears.
In effect, someone shackled the watchdogs and bought them off with stimulus
steaks or marginalized them to ineffectiveness.
We could use a good Elliot Ness about now.

Remember, Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae were NOT private companies. They were
Federally Managed GSEs.
Just who demanded that banks loan to people who could not pay back the
loans, then what Federal management HID that fact from the market?

Umm, the banks themselves? Seriously, who was offering zero down-payment
loands, interest only loans etc.

By Government Mandate.

Who was then bundling these and selling them as Credit Default Swaps with
no accountability or regulations covering them.

GSE Federally controlled enterprises headed by corrupted politicians never
held to account.

Let's back to space now, shall we.

AOK. Works.

After decades of that we now reap the consequences of intentional theft.
Reorganization to get the Government OUT is necessary because they are
not competent managers.
To go after the 1000 spender like the space program and
ignore the Trillion Dollar spender Baleen Whale
Government Welfare programs & a failed corrupted education system in
the room... is laughable!
We need to dump the Rinos and the giant insane red-eyed Donkeys. Then
you *might* have a chance at fixing things.
But unless some rationality is re-established, the waste and corruption
disease will rot the whole country, if not the world.

NASA MANNED space deserves to see its budget ZEROED.
It should consider itself lucky ISS survived

The Monty Python general steps out from behind this post and says: "Now
stop that! It's Silly!"
grin


http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month
Only!

--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.



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John Doe wrote:


I ask again: how far along is the Orion thing ? I know they built a
scale mockup so they could dunk it in water for rescue tests.

And another one to test their lithobraking landing concept:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGcA7oL0QYo
Parachutes aren't the Constellation project's high point.

Pat

"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
"Graystar" wrote in message

That doesn't change the inclination issue. You're still losing a lot of
mass by launching from the surface to a high-inclination orbit. If you
want a space station to build stuff, put it at a much lower inclination
orbit.

Got it. So isn't there quite a lot of *stuff* in Equitorial orbit that
would be a problem for an assembly station?

Who said anything about an equitorial orbit? And even if they had, most
of the stuff is in GEO, not LEO. And even then, there's LOT of room.
You do the math.

Understood.

Just to use simple sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget
http://www.asi.org/adb/04/01/01/01/gto-staging.html
http://spacewhatnow.com/id37.html


You've traded mass in the form of fuel and heatshield, which is fairly
low-tech for a higher tech solution with more failure modes.

Right, though either a better capture or effective deceleration method
must be worked out,
and soon, or problems will ensue...politics being only one of them.

What problems? Heatshields are well understood technology, they work
well. Let's optimize cost/lb, not performence/lb.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

Right.
Thanks for the feedback.
I've got some ideas about that, that need a little more detail.
Thanks for now.



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