It's become clear to me that "space colony" dreamers don't want to face the hard problems Earth-side

We aren't ready yet for large space colony projects.
The technologies not there yet.
Oh sure...mess around if you will....definitely send out robot
probes....
send thousands of those.

But this talk of a permanent Mars space colony or the like, forget
it.

There's a time to get REAL.

Oh I've yelled out in dismay "Beam me up Scotty!" dozens and dozens
of times after a daily dose of the world's "news".

But here's the reality check:
1. Space is deadly
2. Our physical beings are designed for this planet
3. Protecting our bodies/minds for space travel is hard
4. We can't do it yet for long term projects

Also....should we stick our collective heads in the ground, unwilling
to face the hard issues
on our own planet, we won't survive or those that do will be hunting
with stones and spears.

The hard issues like population control, political systems,
environment and the uses of resources, conflict resolution and the
effective discipline of aggression/ambition (for a truly advanced
people this will be done on a personal basis.....as compared to
totalitarian government), etc.

And there seems to be some wise universial law behind it all...."No
race shall spread itself among the stars until it has conquered
itself."

What great extra terrestrial intelligence would set humanity loose
now ??! For crying out loud the Muslims are cutting people's faces
off with piano wire !!!

Yes I send a message now to all friendly space travelers out
there...should you see a Earth ship taking off with deep space
capabilities....SHOOT IT DOWN !!! Until we get our acts straight.

In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

We aren't ready yet for large space colony projects.
The technologies not there yet.

I'm trying to think of a response more fitting than, "well, duh." But
nope, that's the best I've got. I'm sure Henry could put it more
elegantly, but the meaning would be the same.

Oh sure...mess around if you will....definitely send out robot
probes.... send thousands of those.

What in the world do robot probes have to do with space colonies?

But this talk of a permanent Mars space colony or the like, forget
it.

I wouldn't consider a Mars colony to be a space colony; it's a planetary
colony. I agree, there's not too much point in that; our future is in
space, not on the surfaces of planets.

But here's the reality check:
1. Space is deadly

Pish posh. Nothing we can't handle.

2. Our physical beings are designed for this planet

And our future homes in space will be designed for a physical beings.
Nice symmetry there, eh?

3. Protecting our bodies/minds for space travel is hard

Not particularly.

4. We can't do it yet for long term projects

This is true, mostly because we're still in the very slow part of the
progress curve when it comes to space development. If fusion rockets
come along, we'll suddenly advance very quickly. If they don't, we'll
eventually get there anyway, just through the same exponential progress
that characterizes virtually every other human industry.

Also....should we stick our collective heads in the ground, unwilling
to face the hard issues on our own planet, we won't survive or those
that do will be hunting with stones and spears.

Not sure what you're babbling about here. Space colonization isn't
about escapism; it's about providing for the future. FYI, many space
advocates (such as myself) are also environmentalists; the two interests
fit together very nicely.

The hard issues like population control, political systems,
environment and the uses of resources, conflict resolution and the
effective discipline of aggression/ambition (for a truly advanced
people this will be done on a personal basis.....as compared to
totalitarian government), etc.

OK, you go solve those things and let us know how it goes.

And there seems to be some wise universial law behind it all...."No
race shall spread itself among the stars until it has conquered
itself."

Sounds like more rubbish to me.

What great extra terrestrial intelligence would set humanity loose
now ??!

Who asked 'em? Either they don't exist, or they're clearly not
interested in either helping or interfering with us. I suspect the
former.

For crying out loud the Muslims are cutting people's faces
off with piano wire !!!

Not all Muslims; let's not spread prejudice. A couple hundred years ago
it was the Christians burning people at the stake, and before that the
Romans nailing people to crosses and leaving them there to die slowly.
Fanatics and nuts have always been with us. I think, on the whole,
there is less brutality today than in the past, but I agree there's a
long way to go.

Having a new frontier, with plenty of room and economic opportunity for
all, would go a long way to relieving some of the pressures that
exacerbate such fanaticism.

Yes I send a message now to all friendly space travelers out
there...should you see a Earth ship taking off with deep space
capabilities....SHOOT IT DOWN !!! Until we get our acts straight.

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/

Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

Cheers, Einar

Einar wrote:

Joe Strout wrote:

In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe


I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

Cheers, Einar


There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.

Hop

Hop David wrote:
Einar wrote:

There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.

Hop

I don´t agree with you. At least I don´t believe anything such is
inevitable. I know what kind of behavior probably is at the back of
your mind, say the American Indians, but I really think humans are
changing for the better in number of ways.

To name an example, there actually are big areas of the planet where
wars have become allmost unthinkable, which doesn´t mean I´m unavare
of the areas where wars are still entirelly plausable.

Nowdays, there are actually international rescue efforts, food
distributions, health efforts, and so on. Still plenty of misery left,
but things have never been better or rather never been less bad.


Cheers, Einar

On Jul 24, 7:57 pm, Hop David wrote:
There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.


Yes this leads to the thing I mentioned about "universal law". (I
need to explain things more clearly...my bad)

I think many people advocating mass space/planet colonization do so
because "If we don't establish a colony, then humans will extinguish
themselves on Earth. We need a life boat."
This is the reason that Stephen Hawkings gives.

I argue against this...or rather, I think it futile.

Think of that scene in "Contact" based on Sagan's book....
Jodie Foster's character encounters the advanced alien and begs
that , for humanities sake, for further contact.
"Humanities in trouble !" argues Foster's character.(words not exact)
"We're confused. Alone ! We need instruction from races that have
already been through this crisis period in development."

The advanced alien declines....not through cruelity, and that's key.
More a tough love type deal.

Humanity isn't going to get any help from anybody.
To get help would be disasterous to all parties...mostly ourselves.

"We learn through our suffering" individuals, nations, species.

It's not loony.
I intuitively know that we won't be able to "conquer space" until
humanity has mastered ourselves and become expert stewards of the
Earth. Because that's the natural way of development.

Froget "saving" humanity through space/ planet colonization.
That's putting the horse before the cart.

A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

GatherNoMoss wrote:


A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

You are absurd.

To begin with, it´s not possible to move any significant fraction of
humanity beyond Earth, now that´s merelly the Solar system. However, it
´s possible to establish space colonies. Only over the long term will
spacecolonization safe humanity, as after all life on this planet has
only finite time, and that´s without human intereference in natural
cycles.

There is no danger that humans will be spreading beyond the Solar
System anytime soon. So any hypothetical aliens out there will be
quite safe for quite a wile yet. However, we can begin
spacecolonization this century, in this solar system.

Maybe centuries from now the first colonists will arrive at the
neighboring solar systems, but that´s a worry for that time.

Cheers, Einar

In article .com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

I think many people advocating mass space/planet colonization do so
because "If we don't establish a colony, then humans will extinguish
themselves on Earth. We need a life boat."
This is the reason that Stephen Hawkings gives.

That's true, but it's a very long-term view. Sooner or later, if we all
remain cooped up on the Earth, we WILL go extinct. Conversely, if we
spread out into the galaxy, then we almost certainly will not.

I argue against this...or rather, I think it futile.

Think of that scene in "Contact" based on Sagan's book....
Jodie Foster's character encounters the advanced alien and begs
that , for humanities sake, for further contact.
"Humanities in trouble !" argues Foster's character.(words not exact)
"We're confused. Alone ! We need instruction from races that have
already been through this crisis period in development."

The advanced alien declines....not through cruelity, and that's key.
More a tough love type deal.

Humanity isn't going to get any help from anybody.

Well, duh. Who said we were? Space colonization is about helping
ourselves.

And by the way, I'm not sure what a (bad) scifi movie has to do with the
topic at hand.

To get help would be disasterous to all parties...mostly ourselves.

"We learn through our suffering" individuals, nations, species.

Asceticism noted, but irrelevant. Suffer all you want, it's not going
to help if a comet is pointed our way (or some extremist releases a
species-killing plague, or any of several other global catastrophes that
can reasonably be imagined).

I intuitively know that we won't be able to "conquer space" until
humanity has mastered ourselves and become expert stewards of the
Earth. Because that's the natural way of development.

Your intuition is not only wrong, but irrelevant.

Froget "saving" humanity through space/ planet colonization.
That's putting the horse before the cart.

No, it's simple logic. Having all your eggs in one basket is just
foolish.

A species that has to save itself by GETTING AWAY FROM ITSELF won't
make it. It's a maturity issue.
Technology is not the only measure of a species !

More nonsense. You stay here and wax philosophical if you want; we're
going out among the stars. Eventually, something will come along and
wipe out those who are still on Earth (though a spacefaring civilization
would be able to avert some of those, like the killer comet)... but
humanity as a whole will survive, when Earth is no longer its only home.

And you know, this goes far beyond mere humans. As far as current
evidence indicates, there is no other life in our galaxy -- we might be
it, all there is, one tiny spark of growth and self-awareness in an
otherwise dead galaxy. If so, I'd argue (waxing philosophical myself,
now!) that we have a responsibility to spread life to the rest of the
galaxy. If we don't do it, it's entirely possible that it won't happen.
So quit arguing that we should sit here on our tiny little ball of rock,
contemplating our navels until something comes along and squishes us --
that's a morally reprehensible position to take.

Best,
- Joe

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/

"Hop David" wrote in message
...
Einar wrote:

Joe Strout wrote:

In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe


I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

Cheers, Einar


There's at least the possibility that future spacefaring humans will
encounter intelligent beings with a primitive culture. If our
descendants are like us, such an encounter would likely be bad news for
the alien life forms.

Hop

Yeah, especially if actor Micheal York is manning the guns
(some of you may get that)...

On 24 Jul, 23:49, Einar wrote:
Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,
GatherNoMoss wrote:

You realize you're bordering on looniness here, right?

Best,
- Joe

I have heard similar drivel before, i.e humans should fix things over
here first, before venturing beyond Earth. One underlying assumption
appears to be that the universe is some sort of a pristine plase that
we bad humans shall mess up somehow if we first do not learn how to
behave,

I think there are in fact two arguments along these lines. One
argument is a supergreen argument that "every prospect pleases and
only man is vile".

The other issue relates to space/other planetary colonies as a "second
chance" for Earth. My feeling is that if generals and politicians felp
that there was a second chance they would not do their utmost to
preserve the Earth.

Also we have to look at what technologies are required first of all
for a non siege colony. I use the term "siege" in the sense of a
"siege" economy. A non siege colony is relatively easy to set up.
Indeed the ISS can in some ways be regarded as a kind of non siege
colony. A non siege colony will of course die with Earth.

A siege colony must be capable of making everything it needs,
including critical components like 0.15 micron chips. A siege colony
would in fact be a Von Neumann replicator, and if Andrew Ng's flatpack
assembler were to be perfected a siege colony would be a VN machine in
the full formal sense.

"Siege" would in fact have propelled us to a critical point. With a
formal VN any project, no matter how large could readily be attempted.
I have said that Venus could be colonized with full VN. You build a
sunshield and you terraform.

There are other implications too of VN. If your idea of a siege colony
is to protect the Earth from human folly - forget it. In fact a VN
machine would open up all sorts of military possibilities. If we did
not at that point have a peaceful world the solar system which would
be created would be one of INCREASED not REDUCED risk. This is not a
hypergreen viewpoint, this is a viewpoint based on the consequences of
a VN arms race in space. In fact it would seem probable that if the
Earth were to become devoid of humans everywhere else would too. What
would carry on evolution would be the silicon organism.

Another argument is that space colonies would help to "save democracy"
- John Savard I think. Sending anyone anywhere with that prescription
is a recipe for disaster. It could even be looked upon as an attempt
to impose one view of democracy on the rest of us. We would not be
free, we would have the sword of Damocles hovering over us.

If people really want to do something for democracy. Democracy
represents knowledge as much as the ability to vote. They would go for
a conformal array + MEO satellites. That can be done now.

Of course we cannot wait for a peaceful world before we do anything.
That, as I have said, would be hypergreen. However we must be careful
of starting a new arms race somewhere else. The human race would not
be safeguarded. The human race would be subjected to the risks of a
new arms race.



- Ian Parker