SETI Ignores the Evidence

"Jay Windley" wrote in message
...

"Paul Lawler" wrote in message
. 170.92...
|
| You know what... you are absolutely correct. I cannot provide ONE
SINGLE
| authentic UFO picture or video.

I'm not surprised. I've never heard it argued before that in order to
hold
a position credibly, one must be able to provide conclusive evidence for
the
converse of that position.


Oh, I saw an article once where someone had asked "If UFO's don't exist,
then why don't they (astronomers) take photographs to prove it?"



[rolls eyes]

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

"BP" wrote in message
...
God, you are right. I am an idiot.

Wally, Paul help...What the heck am I gonna do? Does this ruin my dream
of
the PhD at Cal Tech. Man, I had no idea I was ...sniff, sniff stupid.
Why
me? Why? That dashes my hopes of being a professor. What would the kids
think of me if they new I was stupid?

We are all devastated by the superior intellect of MS. Did you know he
discovered a Fractal that even to this day has not been discovered or known
to anyone else? Not only that, big business stole his colours.

He's also told us that we couldn't possibly have printed out fractal images
in 1987, because we only had dot matrix printers back then? I must have
been dreaming.


Oh, and X-Files the movie quoted him. Funny thing is, I cannot find his name
in the credits.

But then we are all part of a psych experiment by MS. He is the maze
master, and we are all his lab rats. All of the above are usually
overcompensations for feelings of inadequacy.




BP

"Mad Scientist" wrote in message
t.cable.rogers.com...
You are an idiot BP. This is not an insult to you by the way, just a
simple statement of fact.

BP wrote:

I have been trying to do a statistical model of his posts versus facts
and
it's funny what I keep finding. Because he folds after the first round
of
challenges the model goes to zero very quickly. In fact, I seem to be
coming up with a number close to infinity.

MS, can't you hang on past one round of critiques. That would present
more
of a challenge and would allow me to tweak some numbers in your
direction.
No integrity.

BP



--
Usenet is filled with abusive and obsessive-compulsive-sociopathic
personality disorder sufferers which makes it all the more easily
ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

"BP" wrote in
:

Maybe he is cover up a manhood problem. What's the matter MS can't
get your telescope to point at zenith??? Still drooping below the
horizon?

BP

Pointless ad hominem attack. Unless you know him on an intimate level, you
are probably unqualified to make these kinds of judgements.

"BP" wrote in
:

God, you are right. I am an idiot.

Wally, Paul help...What the heck am I gonna do? Does this ruin my
dream of the PhD at Cal Tech. Man, I had no idea I was ...sniff,
sniff stupid. Why me? Why? That dashes my hopes of being a
professor. What would the kids think of me if they knew I was stupid?

Fear not, BP! If you pay close attention to all that Mad Scientist says,
and put it into practice in your daily life, then you have his assurance
that one day God will listen to you, too.

Might I suggest you begin with the frontal lobotomy. Ever since I had
mine, Mad Scientist is a lot easier to take.

Yeah, you are right. I am sorry...I was wrong MS. Do you forgive me? That
was rather pointless.

BP

"Paul Lawler" wrote in message
. 170.81...
"BP" wrote in
:

Maybe he is cover up a manhood problem. What's the matter MS can't
get your telescope to point at zenith??? Still drooping below the
horizon?

BP

Pointless ad hominem attack. Unless you know him on an intimate level,
you
are probably unqualified to make these kinds of judgements.

Hi BP,
My name is Ted Roe and I am the Executive Director of NARCAP. My group
was founded in 2000 by a NASA Senior Research Scientist, Dr. Richard
Haines. His credentials including his stint as the Chief of the Space
Human Factors Office at NASA Ames Research Center are listed on the
homepage of our website at www.narcap.org
The reason you haven't heard of us is that we are not in the UFO biz
though the UFO community seems to like what we do. We are focused on
aviation safety related issues involving what we refer to as UAP or
unidentified aerial phenomena. We enjoy the support of the NASA Chief
of the Aviation Safety Program Office at Ames Research Center - Mr.
Brian E. Smith and the Director of the FAA/NASA Aviation Safety
Reporting System - Linda Connell. You can find referals to us by
making inquiries to the FAA Public Relations office or you can access
the National Transportation Library/Bureau of Transportation
Statistics website and find references to our work.
With respect to pilot reports, please refer to NARCAP Technical Report
4 listing 1300 cases involving pilot reports of UAP including UFO. I
have many more pilot reports of UFO, though we have no idea what UFO
are or why pilots have reported them for over eighty years. I have
pilots and aircrew and aircontrollers on staff who have seen these
phenomena in the course of their day to day work in their chosen
careers.
For reasons why the aviation community is reticent to engage this
issue, please examine NARCAP Technical Report 8.
With respect to Major General Twining, the important point here is
that when the USAF was founded in Sept. 1947, the issue of UFO was of
the highest priority. Since these docs represent marching orders it is
relevent to ask the question "Who compiled this data prior to the
inception of the USAF?"

With respect to SETI ignoring the evidence, they are coming around
with their recent acknowledgement that probes are more likely to be
used by alien races than radio signals - see Shostak's article: While
we are watching Mars is Someone Watching Us?

You have nothing to lose by educating yourself...

Ted Roe
Executive Director
NARCAP



"BP" wrote in message ...
Alright, maddie...I'll bite... Who the F is NARCAP.. I've been in aviation
for most of my life and never heard of NARCAP. Plus bring me a pilot that
has seen a UFO, and you'll win the prize. How about this...moron. If a
post falls in an empty ng...is it heard? I worked in intelligence in the AF
and can;'t figure out half of the garbage you are spewing. Is life that
hard?

Twinning was a MAJOR General in 1947.

Not to mention the rest of this offers no proof per se... rather conjecture.
Rather old reading.

BP

In a 1952 classified report for the Air Technical Intelligence Center
(ATIC) at Wright Patterson Air
Force Base, Hynek recommended that the UFO question be given ?the status
of a scientific problem,?
freeing the scientists from the restraints of secrecy which confuse the
public. ?The number of truly
puzzling incidents is now impressive,? he reported. ?The first effort
should be to determine with great
accuracy what the phenomena to be explained really are and to establish
their reality beyond all
question.?16"

"The testimony of Dr. James E. McDonald, senior physicist of the
Institute of Atmospheric Physics and
Professor of Meteorology at the University of Arizona, was the most
extensive. A respected authority
and leader in the field of atmospheric physics, McDonald had authored
highly technical papers for
professional journals. He spent two years examining formerly classified
official file material and radar
tracking data on UFOs; interviewing several hundred witnesses; and
conducting in-depth case
investigations, details of which were provided to the Committee."

"McDonald told the Committee that no other problem within their
jurisdiction compared to this one.
?The scientific community, not only in this country but throughout the
world, has been casually
ignoring as nonsense a matter of extraordinary scientific importance.?
McDonald indicated that he
leaned towards the extraterrestrial hypothesis as an explanation, due to
?a process of elimination of
other alternative hypotheses, not by arguments based on what I could
call ?irrefutable proof.?? 24"

"Dr. Bernard Haisch, Director of the California Institute for Physics
and Astrophysics and author of
over a hundred published papers, agrees. ?I propose that true skepticism
is called for today: neither the
gullible acceptance of true belief nor the closed-minded rejection of
the scoffer masquerading as the
skeptic.? Haisch was the editor of the JSE for twelve years. ?Any
scientist who has not read a few
serious books and articles presenting actual UFO evidence should out of
intellectual honesty refrain
from making scientific pronouncements,? he says. ?To look at the
evidence and go away unconvinced
is one thing. To not look at the evidence and be convinced against it
nonetheless is another. That is not
science. Do your homework!?84"

--

I really like this last quote where Dr. Bernard Haisch says, "to look at
the evidence and be convinced against it - is not science". Really says
alot about how many 'scientists'only masquerade when in truth they are
nothing but pseudoscientists.

nightbat wrote

Ted Roe wrote:

Hi BP,
My name is Ted Roe and I am the Executive Director of NARCAP. My group
was founded in 2000 by a NASA Senior Research Scientist, Dr. Richard
Haines. His credentials including his stint as the Chief of the Space
Human Factors Office at NASA Ames Research Center are listed on the
homepage of our website at www.narcap.org
The reason you haven't heard of us is that we are not in the UFO biz
though the UFO community seems to like what we do. We are focused on
aviation safety related issues involving what we refer to as UAP or
unidentified aerial phenomena. We enjoy the support of the NASA Chief
of the Aviation Safety Program Office at Ames Research Center - Mr.
Brian E. Smith and the Director of the FAA/NASA Aviation Safety
Reporting System - Linda Connell. You can find referals to us by
making inquiries to the FAA Public Relations office or you can access
the National Transportation Library/Bureau of Transportation
Statistics website and find references to our work.
With respect to pilot reports, please refer to NARCAP Technical Report
4 listing 1300 cases involving pilot reports of UAP including UFO. I
have many more pilot reports of UFO, though we have no idea what UFO
are or why pilots have reported them for over eighty years. I have
pilots and aircrew and aircontrollers on staff who have seen these
phenomena in the course of their day to day work in their chosen
careers.
For reasons why the aviation community is reticent to engage this
issue, please examine NARCAP Technical Report 8.
With respect to Major General Twining, the important point here is
that when the USAF was founded in Sept. 1947, the issue of UFO was of
the highest priority. Since these docs represent marching orders it is
relevent to ask the question "Who compiled this data prior to the
inception of the USAF?"

With respect to SETI ignoring the evidence, they are coming around
with their recent acknowledgement that probes are more likely to be
used by alien races than radio signals - see Shostak's article: While
we are watching Mars is Someone Watching Us?

You have nothing to lose by educating yourself...

Ted Roe
Executive Director
NARCAP

nightbat

Don't concern yourself Ted, for we here in alt.astronomy
received contact with purported alien race via Darla and Commander Proz.
Many Earth pilot possible reports therefore are simply Darla's sub
mother crafts observing our race as well as other life forms in this
galaxy and this planet. We are enjoying exchange of info on their
advanced state technology versus ours and they wish continued restricted
dialog with only select particular alt.astronomy posters. Thanks for
your interesting input post on amount of confirmations of Earth pilot
sightings of extraterrestrial flying objects. Darla has assured us of
their purely scientific human and living life forms interest and there
acting primary agenda of non interference main protocol position as
guardians of this inter galactic cosmic space.


the nightbat

Not in the UFO business? Okay. I can have a decent conversation with you.
Now Mad Scientist take note this is how you source someone. You reference
it, not tell people that they are sociopaths.

I must admit, I have been a pilot for over 13 years and my dad a Air Traffic
Controller for over 35 years and have never heard of this. After seeing
your website, I see that you are addressing things like EM phenomena and
physiological factors. This is quite a bit different than ET chasing. I see
stars and lights all the time though, but it is from pulling too many G's in
an Immelmann.

I've had a friend that flew near some weather and had lost electrical power
until he reset the alternator and a few breakers. Sure, this is something
safety related and sure it should be reported using a NASA ASRS form. But
to attribute it to extraterrestrials on first impression or as a last
explanation is irresponsible. For instance, the Bermuda triangle had been a
place that had led to disappearances and a lot of mysticism, rather than
science was used to explain it. We know now that the magnetic variation is
strong in that area and

That is the source of my skepticism.

Although, I do have to disagree with you on one point I would not really
call UFO research in the Majestic 12 program the highest priority for the
Air Force at the time. Sure there were 12 indoctrinated into the program
and it was Top Secret. Here is where I am of a different opinion. Top
Secret is to protect sources that could cause immediate grave danger or loss
of life. The caveat Majestic is to keep the info compartmentalized so that
only people that "need to know" have access. If the press or public got
wind that the Government was investigating UFO's it could be misconstrued as
a confirmation of existence.

How can you prove that the UFO (ETs) did not exist if there was an
intentional cover-up? Would that not cause panic. Just because it is Top
Secret, does not give it high priority but rather highest protection of the
source. It does not matter if they conceal or are open, either way they are
screwed. One explanation, is that they were investigating the same
phenomena as you. Though that is never considered by the UFO community.

Make no mistake, when it comes to ET phenomena I am a skeptic...not a
denier. Show me the evidence, I will not rule out ET's as an option.
However, it usually falls off the list very quickly.

Take for instance the argument about the black triangles over Arizona a few
years back. You had supposed scientist desperately filling in information
to prove their case of ETs. I saw the videos, they looked like flares
dropped from aircraft. But, I have spent time in the AF. I don't expect
people to know what that looks like if they've never seen it. However, when
people go on TV and tell their case it is not enough for UFO chasers. They
need fulfillment.

You have nothing to lose by educating yourself, right, but learn to seperate
the wheat from the chaff.

BP

BP wrote:

Not in the UFO business? Okay. I can have a decent conversation with you.
Now Mad Scientist take note this is how you source someone. You reference
it, not tell people that they are sociopaths.


I am always willing to reference sources where appropriate, but not with
those who just wish to play mind games and smear. You ascribe to me
motivations which do not exist whatsoever. I have never insulted
someone who simply asks for a reference, but those who ask repeatedly
when the facts can be found easily if they would only do a search
themselves for those facts, are obviously just making a claim to want
facts (references), when really they do not care.



I must admit, I have been a pilot for over 13 years and my dad a Air Traffic
Controller for over 35 years and have never heard of this. After seeing
your website, I see that you are addressing things like EM phenomena and
physiological factors. This is quite a bit different than ET chasing. I see
stars and lights all the time though, but it is from pulling too many G's in
an Immelmann.

I've had a friend that flew near some weather and had lost electrical power
until he reset the alternator and a few breakers. Sure, this is something
safety related and sure it should be reported using a NASA ASRS form. But
to attribute it to extraterrestrials on first impression or as a last
explanation is irresponsible. For instance, the Bermuda triangle had been a
place that had led to disappearances and a lot of mysticism, rather than
science was used to explain it. We know now that the magnetic variation is
strong in that area and

That is the source of my skepticism.


I have my own ideas about the wide variety of UFO sightings, and I have
hardly shared them on this newsgroup and may never share them on this
newsgroup. I certainly don't make outlandish claims about all UFO's
that others do, and I certainly do know something about them which even
the experienced investigator of the phenomena may be oblivious to. Plus
I haven't been to a UFO meeting or conference in almost 10 years to show
you how much I care what people believe. I have studied the phenomena
myself for about 20 years now, and I am not about to simply give away my
hard earned (countless thousansd of hours reading and pouring over
thousands of sightings, documents, cases, and books/theories)opinions on
the subject for free anymore.


Although, I do have to disagree with you on one point I would not really
call UFO research in the Majestic 12 program the highest priority for the
Air Force at the time. Sure there were 12 indoctrinated into the program
and it was Top Secret. Here is where I am of a different opinion. Top
Secret is to protect sources that could cause immediate grave danger or loss
of life. The caveat Majestic is to keep the info compartmentalized so that
only people that "need to know" have access. If the press or public got
wind that the Government was investigating UFO's it could be misconstrued as
a confirmation of existence.


Miscontrued? You lost me there. The fact that UFO's are real and are
taken seriously at the highest levels of government should make people
take notice. This is the biggest subject of our age, bigger than the
discovery of other planets in the universe, bigger than the Standard
Model needing updating even. For the governments to have engaged in a
conspiracy of secrecy is downright scandalous and dirty to the highest
degree. All people everywhere deserve to know the truth about ET's and
sightings of advanced craft which are obviously under the guidance of an
intelligence not from this earth.



How can you prove that the UFO (ETs) did not exist if there was an
intentional cover-up? Would that not cause panic. Just because it is Top
Secret, does not give it high priority but rather highest protection of the
source. It does not matter if they conceal or are open, either way they are
screwed. One explanation, is that they were investigating the same
phenomena as you. Though that is never considered by the UFO community.

Make no mistake, when it comes to ET phenomena I am a skeptic...not a
denier. Show me the evidence, I will not rule out ET's as an option.
However, it usually falls off the list very quickly.


It is not my position to prove anything to anybody. If they wish to
find evidence, it is their responsibility to go find it. Not demand it
from others. For what is evidence to one person, is not necessarily
evidence to another.



Take for instance the argument about the black triangles over Arizona a few
years back. You had supposed scientist desperately filling in information
to prove their case of ETs. I saw the videos, they looked like flares
dropped from aircraft.


If you are talking about the Phoenix lights, flares do not hover and
remain stationary in the sky for hours.


But, I have spent time in the AF. I don't expect
people to know what that looks like if they've never seen it. However, when
people go on TV and tell their case it is not enough for UFO chasers. They
need fulfillment.

You have nothing to lose by educating yourself, right, but learn to seperate
the wheat from the chaff.

BP




What you say later on here, makes no sense to me. In other words you
have nothing to base your suggestion that I 'learn to separate wheat
from chaff' because I have offered nothing about UFO sightings other
than to reference web sites which have sightings listed on them. But I
don't go on and on about UFO's because I really don't care what people
believe about the subject, unless they make it the subject of a personal
attack on me. God said aeons ago, "I set before you light and darkness,
life and death, ...now choose life...." That quote really means it is
everyone's personal responsibility to come to a knowledge of truth (and
in this case the same applies to UFO's and ET's), and if they remain
blind their whole life to higher reality, they have no one to blame but
themselves - whether they demanded or asked of others for evidence their
whole life makes no difference.

It is my personal responsibility to remain clean by showering everyday
and washing everyday. No one elses. It is my responsibility to either
learn about astronomy and physics, not anyone elses to teach it to me.
The same thing applies to finding out the origins of mankind,
discoverying the real truth behind the Pyramids the world over...etc., etc.


Believe me, no one is going to shed a tear if you ignorantly drink
yourself to death with alcohol - it was your responsibility to find out
the dangers of the fluid before you decided to binge drink yourself to
death. If a person puts a gun to their head and pulls the trigger,
they have no one to blame for their death - not even God for allowing
the natural laws of physics to take their course.
If you live in Florida right now, and the government have issued an
evacuation order, and you refuse to comply - and you die, whose to blame?

The only reason I offer my knowledge and experience to others is to help
them along in the right direction, not spoon feed them as if they were
below me. Once a woman I knew by aquaintence asked me what I thought
about the soul and suicide, and without really knowing her motivations
although I suspected she was suicidal, told her what I thought. She
killed herself two weeks later, and I was not to blame for death
either. She was. Another friend years later that I met...asked me the
same question - and I told her a very different answer because I had
learned more about it. I also refused to hear her deny that she wasn't
suicidal, and my persistance paid off. ...because she admitted she was.
She is still alive today, and I get no credit for it, she does....she
made the choice about what to believe from what not to believe, not me.
The same applies to the Big Bang theory....everyone is welcome to
believe it is true or not true, and no one can 'order' or 'demand' what
they accept to be true. The same applies to soldiers who find themselves
trapped in the military life they choose and now need to stay in order
to support a family - they have no one to blame if they get sent off to
war and come home crippled or maimed, save for the remote possibility
that the government holds a higher degree of 'blame' or responsibility
than themselves.

However I believe - It is everyone's personal responsibility to decide
for themselves what they do with their short time here on this planet,
and that includes what they choose to believe in. Only dictators,
tyrants, abusers, control freaks, and sociopaths despise such freedom of
consciousness and conscience.

--
Usenet is filled with abusive and obsessive-compulsive-sociopathic personality disorder sufferers which makes it all the more easily ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.

If you are talking about the Phoenix lights, flares do not hover and
remain stationary in the sky for hours.

You prove my point about people not being satisfied. The video evidence of
that did not show them falling for hours, rather minutes. Those flares are
designed to fall slowly and burn slowly to light a battlefield area. But
only someone in the know, would know that. You can't accept the solution
because it does not fit into your agenda.

I have offered nothing about UFO sightings other
than to reference web sites which have sightings listed on them.

And because it is on a website and on the internet, it must be true? Right?

It is my responsibility to either
learn about astronomy and physics, not anyone elses to teach it to me.

Then please learn what physics and astronomy can or cannot answer not the
stuff that you keep providing. Everyone else and I have consistently tried
to politely disagree and point you into the correct direction. But, some
people minds are made up you can't change them. MS, you are never going to
see that the ideas you project on people are mainly your own misgiving. I
am sorry for that. You will never see the light, and none of us can shine
it any brighter.

The only reason I offer my knowledge and experience to others is to help
them along in the right direction, not spoon feed them as if they were
below me.

But, don't you see that a good deal of people here including me don't
appreciate this in this forum? My response is even beyond what is supposed
to be here. So this will be the last response you get from me. At first it
was amusing. Now it is just annoying.

Only dictators,
tyrants, abusers, control freaks, and sociopaths despise such freedom of
consciousness and conscience.

You have the freedom to say what you want...but I have the freedom to say
that those ideas are kooky. Remember, I reserve the right to dissent with
out freedom of persecution. You can say all you want about any subject,
I'll never take that right away. You are persecuting me for stating my
opinion that you are kooky. This means you are the tyrant, control freak.

I take back the apology...
BP