Human Mars Mission Impossible?

"Mike Combs" wrote in message
...
"Ool" wrote in message
...

But no matter where you want to eventually place the things, it
doesn't change the immediate goal of going there and developing an in-
dustry first. Without that there will be no solar power on the Moon
or in GEO or anywhere.

But one of the encouraging things about the O'Neill studies was that you
could actually get started with very little industry on the moon. Just a
modest amount of mining equipment (maybe just one bulldozer),

In reality, there would be nothing modest about the actual costs
of designing, building, launching, landing, and maintaining a
massive, durable "bulldozer" capable of operating reliably for any
length of time on the moon.
Also, I suspect you are also underestimating the hardness and
abrasiveness of the subsurface - and how many replacement
drills bits would be required to even find out what's actually
underground there.

"Ool" wrote in message
...

A real breakthrough would be if they managed to produce some oxygen
very soon after their first missions, using as little and as light
equipment as possible.

You're right. The availability of lunar oxygen in cislunar space would very
dramatically change the economics of spaceflight beyond LEO.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We should ask, critically and with appeal to the numbers, whether the
best site for a growing advancing industrial society is Earth, the
Moon, Mars, some other planet, or somewhere else entirely.
Surprisingly, the answer will be inescapable - the best site is
"somewhere else entirely."

Gerard O'Neill - "The High Frontier"

"Chosp" wrote in message
news:Y9pSb.31909$F15.10855@fed1read06...

"Mike Combs" wrote

But one of the encouraging things about the O'Neill studies was that you
could actually get started with very little industry on the moon. Just
a
modest amount of mining equipment (maybe just one bulldozer),

In reality, there would be nothing modest about the actual costs
of designing, building, launching, landing, and maintaining a
massive, durable "bulldozer" capable of operating reliably for any
length of time on the moon.

I'm not saying the cost of the bulldozer would be modest compared to an
Earthly bulldozer. I'm saying the level of activities on the moon would be
modest compared to full industrial development of the moon, which is what
the earlier poster was mentioning.

Also, I suspect you are also underestimating the hardness and
abrasiveness of the subsurface - and how many replacement
drills bits would be required to even find out what's actually
underground there.

The O'Neill plan involved no deep digging of any kind. The elements we need
to build things like SPS and orbital habitats (mostly steel, aluminum, and
silicon) is laying around on the surface.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We should ask, critically and with appeal to the numbers, whether the
best site for a growing advancing industrial society is Earth, the
Moon, Mars, some other planet, or somewhere else entirely.
Surprisingly, the answer will be inescapable - the best site is
"somewhere else entirely."

Gerard O'Neill - "The High Frontier"

"Mike Combs" wrote in message ...
"Ool" wrote in message
...

A real breakthrough would be if they managed to produce some oxygen
very soon after their first missions, using as little and as light
equipment as possible.

You're right. The availability of lunar oxygen in cislunar space would very
dramatically change the economics of spaceflight beyond LEO.

Yeah. Whatever rover they touch down in the next few years, it should
definitely have a little chemical factory on board that can shovel in
a handful of regolith, do solar heating and some rather aggressive
chemical reactions inside, and be rewarded by the release of Lunar O2
gas.

Besides the fact that this is *the* most important immediate goal for
the future of space flight, think about the psychological impact such
news would have, even to the complete layman, who knows nothing at all
about what the Moon is made of and what rockets need in order to fly.

If anyone reads "oxygen" they'll think "air" and they'll say: "What
the--you can make *air* out of *Moon rocks?!* That you can *breathe*
and all?"

Never mind that it's actually much more important for rocket fuel than
for human lungs, I think perception of the Moon's usefulness will
change tremendously after such a bit of news. Aluminum, silicon, iron
whatever--they won't nearly bear as much weight. Not even water--even
though that's close...


Yes, I know it's actually rather hard to free the oxygen from the lu-
nar soil, and that the only reason why it makes sense is because it
would be cheaper than oxygen from Earth's gravity well. Nevertheless,
"oxygen" *is* the magic word to rally support both from the scientific
community as well as the general public.

Agreed?



--
__ “A good leader knows when it’s best to ignore the __
('__` screams for help and focus on the bigger picture.� '__`)
//6(6; ©OOL mmiv :^)^\\
`\_-/ http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich....lmann/redbaron \-_/'

"Mike Combs" wrote in message ...

Also, I suspect you are also underestimating the hardness and
abrasiveness of the subsurface - and how many replacement
drills bits would be required to even find out what's actually
underground there.

The O'Neill plan involved no deep digging of any kind. The elements we need
to build things like SPS and orbital habitats (mostly steel, aluminum, and
silicon) is laying around on the surface.


Yeah. Yet I'm not sure the powdery stuff is the best raw material for
high-end products, such as photovoltaic cells. After all, that dust
was formed by asteroid impacts, throwing stuff kilometers wide and
blending all sorts of different soils together. Larger, purer rocks
would probably be a better source.

Whatever the case, we better figure out what we can do with the pow-
dery regolith first, which even robotic probes can pick up and shovel
into a chemical oven easily before we make more ambitious plans in-
volving heavy jackhammers...

Also, oxygen for rocket fuel is still of more immediate importance
than silicon for solar panels. It would be the oil of the Moon. It
could pay for *everything* else!



--
__ “A good leader knows when it’s best to ignore the __
('__` screams for help and focus on the bigger picture.� '__`)
//6(6; ©OOL mmiv :^)^\\
`\_-/ http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich....lmann/redbaron \-_/'

Michael Gallagher wrote in
:

But it is important if people have misconceptions like that. Some run
for office; others vote. It can create problems tryin to sell it we
otherwise wouldn't have.

If no one fights it, stupidity wins by default. Moronic assertions of non-
fact need to be stepped on wherever and whenever they occur, because it
doesn't take much for these kind of ideas to take route even though they
are completely groundless.

--
Coridon Henshaw - http://www3.telus.net/csbh - "I have sadly come to the
conclusion that the Bush administration will go to any lengths to deny
reality." -- Charley Reese

"Coridon Henshaw @ (TH+ESE) sympatico.ca)" (chenshawREMOVE wrote in
message ...
Michael Gallagher wrote in
:

But it is important if people have misconceptions like that. Some run
for office; others vote. It can create problems tryin to sell it we
otherwise wouldn't have.

If no one fights it, stupidity wins by default. Moronic assertions of
non-
fact need to be stepped on wherever and whenever they occur, because it
doesn't take much for these kind of ideas to take route even though they
are completely groundless.


you gotta be a litrtle sneaky about it, though. If you spend too much time
"addressing the issues" that idiots raise, then you give them an air of
credibility, regardless of how stupid their claims are. So you have to
gently, firmly rebut the claims in a very public manner and move on, you
don't keep replying to every half-assed post that Chomko makes g

That takes soome guts, because every instinct is screaming out to not let
the latest idiocy go unchecked. But if you reply, you're just feeding the
idiocy, not defeating it. So at some point you have to just let it go. There
usually comes a time early on in a debate where the idiot says something so
completely dip**** that you can safely ignore it altogether, and it will be
obvious to everyone that you're not conceding the point, just refusing to
dignify it with a remark.

--
Terrell Miller


"It's one thing to burn down the **** house and another thing entirely to
install plumbing"
-PJ O'Rourke

"Ool" wrote in message
...

Agreed?

Indeed!

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
We should ask, critically and with appeal to the numbers, whether the
best site for a growing advancing industrial society is Earth, the
Moon, Mars, some other planet, or somewhere else entirely.
Surprisingly, the answer will be inescapable - the best site is
"somewhere else entirely."

Gerard O'Neill - "The High Frontier"

"Ool" wrote in message ...
"Mike Combs" wrote in message ...
"Ool" wrote in message
...

A real breakthrough would be if they managed to produce some oxygen
very soon after their first missions, using as little and as light
equipment as possible.

You're right. The availability of lunar oxygen in cislunar space would very
dramatically change the economics of spaceflight beyond LEO.

Yeah. Whatever rover they touch down in the next few years, it should
definitely have a little chemical factory on board that can shovel in
a handful of regolith, do solar heating and some rather aggressive
chemical reactions inside, and be rewarded by the release of Lunar O2
gas.

Besides the fact that this is *the* most important immediate goal for
the future of space flight, think about the psychological impact such
news would have, even to the complete layman, who knows nothing at all
about what the Moon is made of and what rockets need in order to fly.

If anyone reads "oxygen" they'll think "air" and they'll say: "What
the--you can make *air* out of *Moon rocks?!* That you can *breathe*
and all?"

Never mind that it's actually much more important for rocket fuel than
for human lungs, I think perception of the Moon's usefulness will
change tremendously after such a bit of news. Aluminum, silicon, iron
whatever--they won't nearly bear as much weight. Not even water--even
though that's close...


Yes, I know it's actually rather hard to free the oxygen from the lu-
nar soil, and that the only reason why it makes sense is because it
would be cheaper than oxygen from Earth's gravity well. Nevertheless,
"oxygen" *is* the magic word to rally support both from the scientific
community as well as the general public.

Agreed?

No. Producing Oxygen and Iron is not too difficult. Just add hydrogen
and electrolyse the water. Lunar rogolith might even release enough
hydrogen to make up any leakages.

It seems producing oxygen from Al2O3, whilst liberating aluminium, is
harder.

"Alex Terrell" wrote in message om...
"Ool" wrote in message ...

Yes, I know it's actually rather hard to free the oxygen from the lu-
nar soil, and that the only reason why it makes sense is because it
would be cheaper than oxygen from Earth's gravity well. Nevertheless,
"oxygen" *is* the magic word to rally support both from the scientific
community as well as the general public.

Agreed?

No. Producing Oxygen and Iron is not too difficult. Just add hydrogen
and electrolyse the water. Lunar rogolith might even release enough
hydrogen to make up any leakages.

It seems producing oxygen from Al2O3, whilst liberating aluminium, is
harder.

From what I know even on Earth it can only produced by processes in
excess of 1,000°C. I'm confident those can be achieved by simply fo-
cussing enough sunlight in one spot. I know of solar ovens on Earth
that can produce up to 2,000°C on a sunny day--and all days on the
Moon are sunny.

The only problem would be finding material to contain such a hot envi-
ronment. What is used on Earth for that? Some ceramic material no
doubt... If it could not be produced on the Moon I suppose it would
have to be imported from Earth. Hopefully the supply of oxygen will
create a demand, thus making smelting equipment from Earth afforda-
ble...

Breaking up the highland feldspars would also produce plenty of sili-
con for solar panels--and possibly glass production would become fea-
sible...



--
__ “A good leader knows when it’s best to ignore the __
('__` screams for help and focus on the bigger picture.� '__`)
//6(6; ©OOL mmiv :^)^\\
`\_-/ http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich....lmann/redbaron \-_/'