NASA should stop over-hyping their success

Cardman wrote:

My point more goes along the line that Odyssey findings indicate that
water content in the top few meters of soil exceeds any scientist's
expectations.

Those finding refer to *ice*, no?

If I recall correctly, then a site like this could have around 30%
water ice content in the soil, where it is assumed to be mostly
contained below the immediate top soil in ways that they do not fully
understand.

It would not be, and could not be, liquid water.

Paul

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:48:38 -0600, "Paul F. Dietz"
wrote:

Cardman wrote:

A lava flow according to them, but yes there is water everywhere. Does
not that ground look a touch wet to you?

No. BTW, liquid water cannot exist over almost all the Martian surface --
the pressure is too low.

Well, there is one theory that morning heating of the top soil causes
a brief water ice change to flowing water before the low atmospheric
pressure causes it to evaporate.

Due to the rapid evaporation of water ice in the top soil, then this
would increase atmospheric density in the few centimeters above the
top soil before a brief time.

Thus very cold water could flow.

I believe that's the case at that location.

My point more goes along the line that Odyssey findings indicate that
water content in the top few meters of soil exceeds any scientist's
expectations.

If I recall correctly, then a site like this could have around 30%
water ice content in the soil, where it is assumed to be mostly
contained below the immediate top soil in ways that they do not fully
understand.

In other colder parts of Mars the water ice content is assumed to even
exceed 50% of the soil mass even going up to about 70%.

One theory to explain why there is so much water ice in the top soil
is that there is simply tons of liquid water in the lower layers,
which is kept warm by the top blanket and any remaining heating from
the core of Mars.

The other factor is that as there is crap loads of water on Mars, then
this simply does not go away due to the low pressure.

So what all these factors together can tell you is that maybe warmish
water deep below Mars is slowly rising to the surface, where of course
it would quickly cool.

However, the further warmer water below this is constantly pushing
upwards and is warming this above cooler water.

And so when you get to the surface there is a sudden change where this
low atmospheric pressure causes a sudden change from water ice to a
gas as it evaporated away.

The thing in this is that there is always more water coming up from
below during the early daylight hours, which is constantly keeping the
top soil packed with water ice from below.

Naturally, when things turn dark and gets a lot colder, then so can
your water in the atmosphere return to the ground.

My point I guess is that scientists have a very long way to go before
they understand how Mars works, where this vast volume of water in the
top soil must be moving around somehow.

Since they do not yet understand how there could be so much water ice
in the top soil, then it is a little early to say that the top soil
does not look wet.

It looks a touch wet to me.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Hobbs aka McDaniel" wrote
I picked 7th/8th grade because in the mainstream movie business that is
considered to be the understanding level of the majority of viewers
and it seems to me that NASA has added a lot of showbiz techniques to
their public presentations.

But you still have to be impressed with the wizardry of their (recreated)
audio of the Opportunity landing, released today:

http://www.copperas.com/astro/merb_landing.mp3 (18KB)

Joe

Cardman wrote:

Those finding refer to *ice*, no?


Odyssey has been finding it's water through detecting hydrogen, which
is a very good indication of water.

As far as I am aware there has been no evidence for if this hydrogen
trace of water is in solid of liquid form. Most scientists assume that
it is in the form of solid ice due to the very cold nature of Mars.

And due to the fact that liquid water is physically impossible
under those conditions.


Even then this ice should not exist in the very top of the Martian
soil due to the low pressure evaporation problem.

Nonsense. If the relative humidity above the ice is 100% then
the ice can remain stable indefinitely, even if the atmospheric
pressure is quite low.


One idea to consider is that below the soil you could well have
greater atmospheric density in trapped pockets containing liquid or
ice water, maybe even between individual grains, where certainly there
could well be warmth obtained from both above and below.

Water is not going to exist in liquid form at a depth that
the neutron detectors can see (over most of the martian surface).

Paul

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:29:55 -0600, "Paul F. Dietz"
wrote:

Cardman wrote:

As far as I am aware there has been no evidence for if this hydrogen
trace of water is in solid of liquid form. Most scientists assume that
it is in the form of solid ice due to the very cold nature of Mars.

And due to the fact that liquid water is physically impossible
under those conditions.

That would be nice had they understood the nature of the environment,
but the soil is a big unknown, where the much more studied atmosphere
is capable of the more than a few surprises.

Unless you have an explanation of how there can be so much detected
water in the few meters of top soil, despite the low pressure problem,
then there is more than one possible explanation.

Even then this ice should not exist in the very top of the Martian
soil due to the low pressure evaporation problem.

Nonsense. If the relative humidity above the ice is 100% then
the ice can remain stable indefinitely, even if the atmospheric
pressure is quite low.

And the odds of 100% humidity? Not very high at all I would say, which
is why I previous said that it would be only a very brief early
morning phenomenon.

As you certainly won't be explaining some of this water volume in the
soil using this idea, when it simply cannot last very long.

One idea to consider is that below the soil you could well have
greater atmospheric density in trapped pockets containing liquid or
ice water, maybe even between individual grains, where certainly there
could well be warmth obtained from both above and below.

Water is not going to exist in liquid form at a depth that
the neutron detectors can see (over most of the martian surface).

Excluding the possible chance of warmer water rising from deep within
the ground.

Want to have a shot at explaining those slopes that have water-like
trails running down the slope? After all some people would claim that
these were made by running water.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

Cardman wrote:

And due to the fact that liquid water is physically impossible
under those conditions.


That would be nice had they understood the nature of the environment,
but the soil is a big unknown, where the much more studied atmosphere
is capable of the more than a few surprises.

Unless you have an explanation of how there can be so much detected
water in the few meters of top soil, despite the low pressure problem,
then there is more than one possible explanation.


They detected *ice* in the top few meters of soil. Not liquid water.
Water cannot exist there because the pressure is too low (over almost
all the Martian surface). The low pressure does not preclude the
existence of ice, as I have already explained.

Now, are we going to iterate this several dozen more times, or are
you going to try to think about what I said? I'll give you one
more chance before I right you off as a hopeless moron.

Paul

"Paul F. Dietz" wrote in message ...

you going to try to think about what I said? I'll give you one
more chance before I right you off as a hopeless moron.
Paul

I hoPe yew doNt rite OFF annyune az a hopeless moron...

Pot this is kettle...

Tom Merkle

Tom Merkle wrote:

I hoPe yew doNt rite OFF annyune az a hopeless moron...

Pot this is kettle...

I cancelled that after noticing the spelling error.

But, in any case: **** you, Mr. Merkle. A spelling error
isn't the same as persistent aggressive ignorance
from the poster I was castigating.

Paul

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:32:15 -0600, "Paul F. Dietz"
wrote:

Cardman wrote:

That would be nice had they understood the nature of the environment,
but the soil is a big unknown, where the much more studied atmosphere
is capable of the more than a few surprises.

Unless you have an explanation of how there can be so much detected
water in the few meters of top soil, despite the low pressure problem,
then there is more than one possible explanation.

They detected *ice* in the top few meters of soil. Not liquid water.

No. Odyssey can only detect hydrogen, which is *assumed* (to a high
degree) to be due to water. These findings do not say one way or the
other if this is water ice, liquid water or the long shot of hydrogen
in another form like within rocks.

The problem for you presented by the Odyssey data is that hydrogen
levels in water form detected in the top few meters of soil can be
anything up to 70% of the volume. That would be based upon liquid
water, when this same amount in ice form would take up even more of
the soil volume.

That would result in a pure sheet of water ice covered by a thin layer
of soil, which is a very unlikely possibility.

Since even warmer regions have like 30% and 50% water levels, then
scientist are still working out how there can be so much. Having
warmer water rising from below is one possible explanation.

Not my theory mind you, but of some scientist who has the
qualifications to back it up.

Water cannot exist there because the pressure is too low (over almost
all the Martian surface).

Pressure you refer to involves the atmosphere, where under the soil
you have a natural barrier allowing for different pressures in limited
forms. I would even suggest small pockets between the grains, but
there could well be whole caves and underground lakes there.

The low pressure does not preclude the existence of ice, as I have
already explained.

Except in the very top soil due to a combination of the atmospheric
pressure and heat, when quite correctly such water ice would quickly
evaporate into gas.

Ice water can only exist in the polar regions due to the very low
temperatures freezing it out of the atmosphere.

As you point out ice can exist in the top soil if the atmosphere
immediately above it has a 100% humidity level, but that simply is not
going to happen beyond extremely rapid evaporation lasting a very
short time before the local Martian weather disperses it.

In other words your explanation cannot match the Odyssey data, when
ice cannot exist in the top soil in the warmer regions for more than a
brief time.

Now, are we going to iterate this several dozen more times, or are
you going to try to think about what I said? I'll give you one
more chance before I right you off as a hopeless moron.

Except that your logic is flawed, where it also seems that you missed
that Odyssey detected hydrogen and the claimed water ice.

I look forwards to seeing the results from Mars Express over the
coming months, which will be looking for both liquid and iced water in
the top soil and all the way down to a few kilometers in depth.

I have a feeling that a lot of liquid water is going to be found,
maybe all the way up to just below the surface. That would explain
some of those recent Martian water features after all.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On 30 Jan 2004 12:13:14 -0800, (Tom Merkle) wrote:

"Paul F. Dietz" wrote in message ...

But, in any case: **** you, Mr. Merkle. A spelling error
isn't the same as persistent aggressive ignorance
from the poster I was castigating.

Paul
ok, it was smartass, but:

A) lighten up dude.

Yes, sit back, relax and a few deep breaths.

B) you're wrong on what you were giving Cardman **** about. Ice wasn't
detected in the soil, hydrogen was detected in the soil. We assume
from the temperature and pressure that it has to be ice, but some
people are even starting to question that assumption based on the
observed behavior of soil around the Martian rovers.

And that explains my first comment about the ground looking a touch
wet, but there has been other areas of doubt in the past, which are
based around recently formed Mars surface features and the unexpected
huge volume of hydrogen detected in the top few meters of soil.

After all having that much water in the soil (if proved) already goes
to shatter standard models, when something unexpected must be going on
to account for such a huge volume.

It's been
proposed that with a high enough salt content

Oh yes I forget about that factor, when that hardly gets mentioned,
but equally there could even be other factors that come into play that
no one has yet thought of.

After all if they knew what was going on, then there would be no need
to look. I just hope that these MERs at least can detect salt content,
when that can certainly help in turning ice into water.

and certain soil
characteristics, there could be water that is liquid (at a microscopic
level) on the Martian surface.

Surface was a little further than I would have gone, even if the
ground at times looks a touch wet, but only a little way down I could
well believe that there is liquid water there.

One reason for such belief is that cramming your world full of water
down into the ground would produce a very water orientated result.

Not puddles of it, but high moisture content in the soil (that's wet
water, not ice.)

And if you ask me, then things are going to get a whole load more
impressive the further that you go down. That is why I am greatly
looking forwards to see what Mars Express can confirm.

After all no one has even looked more than a few meters down into the
soil before, where saying that you understand what is going on in the
ground is like saying that you can understand the inside of an orange
just by looking at the peel.

Obviously you cannot understand the soil of Mars until you have had a
really good look at it. Coming to a Martian probe near you soon.

So call him a moron
all you want, you end up looking dumb yourself.

Just someone getting upset believing that they know it all and
starting to find out that they don't.

Anyway, a toast to the Martian soil. May you have lots of water and
only a little ice. When after all finding water on Mars is a big step
towards finding life on Mars.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk