Space shuttle for space tourism and first stage of a TSTO.

OM wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:23:55 -0800 (PST), Charlie X. Murphy, L2
sycophant arrogantly quiffed:

NASM does get one to exchange with Enterprise

...Care to cite source? Or is that only available with an L2 purchase?

http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blogs/space/2009/11/which-museum-will-get-space-shuttle.shtml
http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blogs/space/2010/01/predictions-for-coming-year-in-space.shtml

OM, NASM has first dibs on orbiters, period. They could, in theory, take
a flown orbiter *and keep* Enterprise, if they wanted (and if Udvar-Hazy
could fit two). NASM not only gets to choose who gets Enterprise, they
have considerable say in where the other two flown orbiters will go.

The smart money right now is on:

101 - Seattle Museum of Flight
103 - NASM Udvar-Hazy
104 - USAF Museum, Wright-Patterson
105 - KSC

JSC gets locked out due to bad blood with NASM due to the treatment of
the Saturn V, and Seattle gets Enterprise because Bonnie Dunbar is the
president and is pushing hard to get an orbiter.

"Jonathan" writes:

Hmm, could a business be built around using an orbiter as a tourist
attraction? Use it like a simulator and sell 'stick time' to wannabe
astronauts and rich kids alike? Make a hellova billboard having
an orbiter sitting out front for all to see.

As far as selling simulated 'stick time' to would be astronauts I think
the answer is known and is 'yes' even without an orbiter and spending
$42 million.

http://www.spacecamp.com/details.php...Adult+Programs

Dave

OM wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 19:05:20 -0600, "Jorge R. Frank"
wrote:

OM wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:23:55 -0800 (PST), Charlie X. Murphy, L2
sycophant arrogantly quiffed:

NASM does get one to exchange with Enterprise
...Care to cite source? Or is that only available with an L2 purchase?
http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blogs/space/2009/11/which-museum-will-get-space-shuttle.shtml
http://www.floridatoday.com/content/blogs/space/2010/01/predictions-for-coming-year-in-space.shtml

...Thanks, Jorge. Should have asked you first, rather than someone
with no credibility in my book.

OM, NASM has first dibs on orbiters, period.

...This was never argued against from my end, I should stress.

They could, in theory, take a flown orbiter *and keep* Enterprise,

...With this in mind, I could see Enterprise being sent to JSC.
Considering that JSC has a higher visitor flow than Seatlle does, last
I looked, and JSC's place in the public eye, for them not to get a
Shuttle would take a *lot* of explaining. An old high school buddy is
my rep in the state legislature, and I may ask her about this at our
next reunion planning meeting.

Well, the decisions have not been made, so there is still time for local
efforts to result in something. But if the State Leg really wants an
orbiter, they will get much better results if they appropriate a few
million to replace the temporary building housing the Saturn V at JSC
with a nicer permanent building that happens to be large enough to house
an orbiter as well, rather than just trying to put political pressure on
NASM. Oh, and they could also pony up a few million more to dredge out
Clear Lake and restore the barge landing at NASA Parkway near the Hilton
so that an orbiter could be barged in. (It *would* fit under the Kemah
bridge; I was skeptical until I went on a boat ride under it and
eyeball-measured it.)

The smart money right now is on:

101 - Seattle Museum of Flight

...Arguments against that are cost. Last I heard. SMF's having some
financial difficulties. Nothing door-closing yet, but enough to rule
out building a special extension for something like a Shuttle.

Last I heard, their building is large enough. That carries a lot of
weight with NASM - they want to send orbiters to facilities that have
permanent accommodations *now*. They don't want to send them to
temporary facilities where they will languish for years while a
permanent building is being constructed. And yes, I know that's
hypocritical since the NASM did the exact same thing with Enterprise at
Dulles before Udvar-Hazy was built. Unfortunately, they hold the high
cards and they can do that.

104 - USAF Museum, Wright-Patterson

...Considering how the Air Farce regarded the shuttle, I'd be *really*
surprised if they even got Pathfinder.

Trust me, if *NASA* was making the decision, they wouldn't get one. If
it were *me* making the decision, I'd send Enterprise to Dryden/Edwards
since 1) it has historical ties there, 2) it still gives the USAF "half
an orbiter" and 3) it puts an orbiter on the West coast within driving
distance of tens of millions of people, which in my mind makes it a
better site than Seattle (which is within driving distance of nothing
but Seattle) or Wright-Patterson (which is within driving distance of
Udvar-Hazy).

Nevertheless, the USAF is pushing for an orbiter and their museum at
Wright-Patt is both large enough and well-equipped to preserve one, so
odds are they will get one.

JSC gets locked out due to bad blood with NASM due to the treatment of
the Saturn V, and Seattle gets Enterprise because Bonnie Dunbar is the
president and is pushing hard to get an orbiter.

...AIUI, much of the "bad blood" was really more NASM not willing to
help with any of the upkeep since the stack first wound up at JSC in
the mid 70's. At least that's what some of the guys involved in the
fundraising for the enclosure were telling people during the hat
passings.

While that might be true, that's not the NASM's view of things, so it
won't matter. Victory gets written by the historians, or history gets
written by the victors, something like that.

As for Bonnie, there's more Astronauts in and around JSC
than there are Seattle, and I suspect if it came down to throwing
"astropower" around, Bonnie for all her credibility would still lose
the toss.

She does have a building, which is a pretty strong trump card.

...On a side note, does the NASM also have "bad blood" with Marshall
over the outdoor nature of their stack?

The stack at MSFC is the Dynamic Test Vehicle, while the one at JSC is
the only Saturn V made up *completely* of honest-to-god flight-rated
stages. (The first stage at KSC was a test stage, the last real stage
having gone to Michoud). The DTV also has an interesting history in that
it never went through the hands of NASM thanks to some machinations of
Von Braun.

Still, you'll notice MSFC isn't even on the short list of facilities
with a shot at getting an orbiter. Again, if it were *my* decision, MSFC
*would* get one - they'd get the Challenger debris, accompanied by a
note telling them if they'd done their fracking jobs, they'd have
*gotten* an intact orbiter.

Or with Michoud over their
S-IC just above the hurriflood line?

Michoud won't get an orbiter, either. At best they will get to keep one
of the leftover ETs.

Brian Gaff wrote:
What you all been taking today?

It's not easy crossing a omnivorous simian with a large carnivorous
bird. This is a _lot_ more challenging than crossing the Venus Fly-Trap
with the redwood tree, and all that led to was a bonsai tree with the
personality of Godzilla rather than something that could eat small
aircraft as I intended.
So far all I've got is a baby winged "something" that looks like a
reject from "The Wizard Of Oz", and is going to have a hard time working
the flight controls by poking at them with the stunted wings it has
where the arms should be.
The horrifying results of its attempts to nurse from its mother's
breasts with its beak I will leave to your imagination.
She won't go anywhere near it now, and I doubt she ever will
again...even after all the stitches are removed.
You know, it would be possible to convert a Smart Car into a main battle
tank at fairly low cost if your opponents were, say, squirrels.

Pat

David Spain wrote:
As far as selling simulated 'stick time' to would be astronauts I think
the answer is known and is 'yes' even without an orbiter and spending
$42 million.


I wonder how much you could get for cutting one up for parts and selling
them on eBay?*
There are a lot of tiles on one, and you could probably sell those for a
nice price each.
In fact, you could just replace the tiles with display ones and still
sell them while keeping the orbiter intact.
Moving the orbiters from KSC to their final destinations is going to be
a real pain also. You are either going to have to fly them there on the
747 (and how do you get them off of it once they arrive? That's how they
got Enterprise to Washington DC), or disassemble them for rail or truck
shipment.
Since NASA is in a cash crunch, do they really want to spend money on
this? Flying a orbiter back to KSC from Edwards costs around $1.8
million, and they have a mate-demate frame at either end of the flight.
Simplicity says keep one at KSC and one at Edwards AFB.
In fact they could land one at Edwards on the last flight and just leave
it there. It certainly is a major part of the history of Edwards.

* Space fans are screaming right now. :-D

Pat

Jorge R. Frank wrote:
Well, the decisions have not been made, so there is still time for local
efforts to result in something. But if the State Leg really wants an
orbiter, they will get much better results if they appropriate a few
million to replace the temporary building housing the Saturn V at JSC
with a nicer permanent building that happens to be large enough to house
an orbiter as well, rather than just trying to put political pressure on
NASM. Oh, and they could also pony up a few million more to dredge out
Clear Lake and restore the barge landing at NASA Parkway near the Hilton
so that an orbiter could be barged in. (It *would* fit under the Kemah
bridge; I was skeptical until I went on a boat ride under it and
eyeball-measured it.)

Removing the vertical fin for transport would simplify things a lot in
that regard.
BTW, one of the things that crippled the Soviet space program was their
spending large amounts of money on space-related displays and monuments
for propaganda purposes that could have been going towards actual space
exploration.
Let's not go down that route.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:

I wonder how much you could get for cutting one up for parts and selling
them on eBay?*
There are a lot of tiles on one, and you could probably sell those for a
nice price each.

Let's see...27,000 tiles per orbiter, each one framed and including a
map of where it came from on the orbiter and a certificate of authenticity.
Should be able to whip that up for around $25.00 per tile if we ship
them off to China for enclosure in their display frames.
Can get $200.00 per tile easy, maybe as much as $500.00* as they are all
flown space hardware, so we'll call it $300.00, of which $275.00 is
profit (S&H extra).
So $300.00 x 27,000 = $7,425,000 just for the tiles.

* Some flown ones have gone for nearly $10,000 dollars:
http://www.astronautscholarship.org/...tion.py?lot=41
....and even unflown ones go for $350.00-$500.00:
http://www.mkjassociates.com/cgi-bin...ale=49&lot=254
But of course this is going to flood the market.

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
So $300.00 x 27,000

$275.00 x 27,000.

Pat

On Jan 7, 7:09*pm, OM wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:23:55 -0800 (PST), Charlie X. Murphy, L2
sycophant arrogantly quiffed:

NASM does get one to exchange with Enterprise

...Care to cite source? Or is that only available with an L2 purchase?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *OM



My work

On Jan 7, 7:12*pm, OM wrote:
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:09:40 GMT, "Brian Gaff"

wrote:
What you all been taking today?

...I'd rather Pat be on his halluciongenics and post than Charlie
Murphy posting with that ten-foot corncob up his ass and his nose up
the L2 trolls' collective asses.



You are just jealous