How the gas Giants planets gathered their gas at formation

On Oct 4, 7:04*pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:30 pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Sep 28, 7:37 am, ah wrote:
BURT wrote:
I believe they started as a huge rock metal core greater than the
mass
of the earth that was capable of gathering their huge gas atmospheres
through great gravity. Gas by itself does not possess enough gravity.

Next time you make a fire, set a stone in it for an hour, or so.

When the flames die-down, place a leaf on the stone.

Imagine the stone being as large as The Moon, its gravity hugging all the
byproducts of that thermal transfer...
--
ah

Huh?

Double-A

Exactly.
--
ah

What exectly?

It's not like the earth was a bb that gradually captured some gases from
across the Universe...
--
ah


I think all elements were there in the beginning in the spiralling
cloud of dust and gas out of which the Earth and other planets
formes. The Earth had lots of gas in the biggining, but being so
close to the Sun, lost much of it over time due to the solar wind and
the Earth's relatively modest gravity. However, its magnetic field
did help it keep as much atmosphere as it has.

Double-A

On Oct 6, 11:53*am, Double-A wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:04*pm, ah wrote:





Double-A wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:30 pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Sep 28, 7:37 am, ah wrote:
BURT wrote:
I believe they started as a huge rock metal core greater than the
mass
of the earth that was capable of gathering their hugegasatmospheres
through great gravity.Gasby itself does not possess enough gravity.

Next time you make a fire, set a stone in it for an hour, or so.

When the flames die-down, place a leaf on the stone.

Imagine the stone being as large as The Moon, its gravity hugging all the
byproducts of that thermal transfer...
--
ah

Huh?

Double-A

Exactly.
--
ah

What exectly?

It's not like the earth was a bb that gradually captured some gases from
across the Universe...
--
ah

I think all elements were there in the beginning in the spiralling
cloud of dust andgasout of which the Earth and other planets
formes. *The Earth had lots ofgasin the biggining, but being so
close to the Sun, lost much of it over time due to the solar wind and
the Earth's relatively modest gravity. * However, its magnetic field
did help it keep as much atmosphere as it has.

Double-A- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How did the heavy elements all gather in the solar plane?

Mitch Raemsch

The same way the light elements collected there, Mitch.

Saul Levy


On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:12:14 -0700 (PDT), BURT
wrote:

On Oct 6, 11:53*am, Double-A wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:04*pm, ah wrote:

I think all elements were there in the beginning in the spiralling
cloud of dust andgasout of which the Earth and other planets
formes. *The Earth had lots ofgasin the biggining, but being so
close to the Sun, lost much of it over time due to the solar wind and
the Earth's relatively modest gravity. * However, its magnetic field
did help it keep as much atmosphere as it has.

Double-A- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How did the heavy elements all gather in the solar plane?

Mitch Raemsch

Burt Those hydrogen helium clouds needed the help of metal molecules
to get gravity compression force working efficiently. Stars came first
than dust of heavy elements to create solid cores,and the larger the
core gave their gravity a force to hold the extra gas in this accretion
disk to form around their cores Jupiter core is 15 times more massive
that the whole Earth. It has an atmosphere of hydrogen,and helium. Just
bring your own oxygen,and you could do welding. go figure TreBert

"BURT" wrote in message...
...
On Oct 6, 11:53 am, Double-A wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:04 pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:30 pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Sep 28, 7:37 am, ah wrote:
BURT wrote:

I believe they started as a huge rock metal core greater than
the
mass
of the earth that was capable of gathering their
hugegasatmospheres
through great gravity.Gasby itself does not possess enough
gravity.

Next time you make a fire, set a stone in it for an hour, or so.

When the flames die-down, place a leaf on the stone.

Imagine the stone being as large as The Moon, its gravity
hugging all the
byproducts of that thermal transfer...

Huh?

Exactly.

What exectly?

It's not like the earth was a bb that gradually captured some gases
from
across the Universe...

I think all elements were there in the beginning in the spiralling
cloud of dust andgasout of which the Earth and other planets
formes. The Earth had lots ofgasin the biggining, but being so
close to the Sun, lost much of it over time due to the solar wind and
the Earth's relatively modest gravity. However, its magnetic field
did help it keep as much atmosphere as it has.

How did the heavy elements all gather in the solar plane?

Mitch Raemsch

According to the mainstream version, which seems to be
supported a bit by observations of other stellar systems,
as the original cloud condenses to form a growing central
core, some of the matter in the cloud, mostly the lighter
gases and a few of the heavier elements, form an
"accretion disk" around the condensing protostar core.
It is the relatively slow spinning motion of the cloud, or
actually an orbital motion around the core of the baby
protostar, that is supposed to be the reason that the disk
gets flatter and flatter.

The way this is supposed to happen is explained using
vectors. There are three vectors involved. Suppose we
focus upon a bit of matter in the cloud that is outside the
core and, say, at a 45 degree angle off the rotating core's
equatorial plane. The three directions of movement are
said to be...

1) one vector directly toward the core that represents
"radial velocity",
2) one vector at a ninety-degree angle from the core
that represents "orbital velocity", and
3) one vector pointing in the direction of, and
perpendicular to, the protostar's equatorial plane.

The #3 vector above is very small, but grows larger as
the bit of matter gets closer to the protostar's equatorial
plane. And this #3 vector represents the bit of matter's
tendency to gather with other bits of matter in or near
the plane of the protostar's equator.

Challenge...

This mainstream model cannot explain the very puzzling
distribution of angular momentum in our Solar system.
In the Solar system as we see it today, the Sun contains
99.9% of the total mass of the system, while all the rest
of the system, planets, dwarf planets, asteroids, etc.,
make up only about 0.1% of the total system's mass. So
the Sun has about 750 times the mass of the entire rest
of the Solar system.

The angular momentum is the other way around. Today's
Sun has only about 2% of the total angular momentum of
our Solar system. The rest of the planets, asteroids, etc.,
possess the other 98%. So the Sun only has 1/50 of the
total angular momentum. It gets even better...

To satisfy the conservation of angular momentum, the
actual initial rotation rate of the Sun would need to have
been roughly 700 times the planets' combined angular
momentum. So just to get even with the planets the Sun
would have to be rotating 50 times faster than it actually
is rotating. To satisfy the law of the conservation of
angular momentum, it would have started rotating 700
times faster than that. That means that the Sun's initial
rotation rate was 35,000 times it present rate. Now the
Sun is presently rotating at one revolution per 25.38
Earth days, so a rotation rate that is 35,000 times faster
than at present produces an initial period of revolution
of 1 minute and 2.65 seconds.

And it keeps getting better... According to the CRC
Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, the equatorial
rotational velocity is 2.0578 km/s, which means that the
initial equatorial rotational velocity would be 72,023 km/s
or nearly a quarter the speed of light!

And better and better... The sun's surface escape velocity
is 617.23 km/s, which is 116.7 times smaller than the initial
equatorial rotational velocity of 72,023 km/s. The result is
that the sun would have literally flown apart. That is, of
course, assuming it formed that way to begin with, which
it could not have done. There must have been a balancing
factor.

So the mainstream model has this big challenge of telling
us WHAT HAPPENS and WHY... Why and how does material
form a disk around a condensing protostar, and why and
how does the material in the disk attain such a high level of
angular momentum as compared with the protostar?

We must depart from the mainstream model while still
paying very close attention to observations of other stellar
systems that are still forming.

Spectral observations show that the protoplanetary disk
around a collapsing protostar contains pretty much the
same makeup as the protostar... mostly hydrogen and
helium with trace amounts of lithium and other heavier
elements. And likely not enough heavy elements to form
several planets. It is the spinning of the protostar and
the disk that provides the #3 directional vector described
above. But this force is very tiny, and at first, only the
lighter gas molecules are pulled toward the equatorial
plane in any quantity.

The protostar continues to collapse, and like a skater
whose arms are slowly pulled in toward the body, the
angular momentum of the protostar increases and it
spins faster and faster. The above argument about the
conservation of angular momentum shows that the
protostar is capable of spinning so fast, that the speed of
rotation at the equator can easily exceed the escape
velocity of the protostar.

It can also be deduced that the vast majority of the
heavier elements in the collapse of the protostar will
reside inside the protostar, and by virtue of their weight,
these heavier elements will migrate and congregate at
or near the equatorial surface of the rapidly spinning
protostar. So when the equator speeds up past the
escape velocity, material at the equator, mostly all the
heavier elements that reside there, will be expelled
violently outward from the protostar's equator.

This acts as a balance by slowing the rotation of the
protostar. And the angular momentum has transferred
to the materials that escaped the protostar. Then the
protostar continues to collapse and condense, and to
spin faster and faster. Once again the escape velocity
is reached at the equator and POOF! More material,
mostly heavier elements, fan out from the protostar in
its equatorial plane. And again, more of the angular
momentum is transferred to the new disk material and
the protostar's spin slows down. This process of faster
spin, expelling heavy material, and then slower spin
may repeat itself several times before the protostar
reaches the point that it "fuses" (begins to burn the
light gas, hydrogen) and becomes a true star.

This series of expulsions of matter from the protostar's
equator takes perhaps a few million years, and it gives
strength to the #3 vector so that, by the force of gravity,
those elements above and below the equatorial plane of
the protostar move even more vigorously toward the
disk than before. Collisions of the heavier elements form
larger and larger, fast-spinning objects. And finally,
we get to the great climax of this Solar-system-forming
process...

The protostar fuses and becomes a true star. It has
condensed enough so that its core begins to burn the
light gas, hydrogen, transforming it into helium, and
in a few million years the energy makes it to the outer
surface of the star. When this finally happens, a violent
eruption of tiny particles and energy quanta explode out
from the star to become the "Solar Wind". This blows
all the remaining light elements and small bits of matter
dust outward. Awaiting this mostly hydrogen and helium
matter are huge, solid planets that gather these gases
to form their atmospheres. Viola! These large masses
become the "gas giants".

Closer in to the new star we find maybe two to five
smaller masses orbiting the new star. These are too
tiny to retain any hydrogen or helium, but large enough
that their positions are little if any affected by the power
of the Solar wind. Viola! These smaller masses become
the inner, rock planets.

Everything, all of the objects in the disk, have an angular
momentum that, when added to all the rest, is extremely
high compared with that of the new star, and the baby
star spins very slowly. The disk objects are orbiting and
going around the new star, while spinning very, very fast
on their axes. The "day" for these objects is probably a
period of 6-8 hours or less. Then, over billions of years,
some of these spins are slowed by tidal interactions with
the Sun and/or with the orbits of satellites that may have
formed with, or been caught by, or otherwise became
companions to some of the planets.

Maybe one of these planets orbits within a narrow zone
around the new star, a zone where it's not too cold, not
too hot, so that water can exist mostly as a liquid. Such
a planet, one with some ice, some evaporation, and with
mostly liquid water, becomes habitable. So several of
the elements that were once part of the star might get
together in special ways to form living things. Billions of
years later... Viola! Here we be! We are beings who not
only LIVE, are ALIVE, but who are able to ask HOW? and
WHY? and WHAT HAPPENED? Here we are!

I think it's amazing we've gotten this far, don't you? g

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S. "The belief that there is only one truth, and
that oneself is in possession of it, is the root
of all evil in the world."
Max Born, quantum physicist, and
Olivia Newton John's grandfather!

P.P.S.: http://yummycake.secretsgolden.com
http://garden-of-ebooks.blogspot.com
http://painellsworth.net

On Oct 19, 6:38 am, (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
Burt Those hydrogen helium clouds needed the help of metal molecules
to get gravity compression force working efficiently. Stars came first
than dust of heavy elements to create solid cores,and the larger the
core gave their gravity a force to hold the extra gas in this accretion
disk to form around their cores Jupiter core is 15 times more massive
that the whole Earth. It has an atmosphere of hydrogen,and helium. Just
bring your own oxygen,and you could do welding. go figure TreBert

Electrostatic energy did more to collect gas than gravity, perhaps a
million fold more than gravity.

~ BG

BURT wrote:
On Oct 6, 11:53 am, Double-A wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:04 pm, ah wrote:





Double-A wrote:
On Oct 2, 6:30 pm, ah wrote:
Double-A wrote:
On Sep 28, 7:37 am, ah wrote:
BURT wrote:
I believe they started as a huge rock metal core greater than the
mass
of the earth that was capable of gathering their hugegasatmospheres
through great gravity.Gasby itself does not possess enough gravity.

Next time you make a fire, set a stone in it for an hour, or so.

When the flames die-down, place a leaf on the stone.

Imagine the stone being as large as The Moon, its gravity hugging all the
byproducts of that thermal transfer...
--
ah

Huh?

Double-A

Exactly.
--
ah

What exectly?

It's not like the earth was a bb that gradually captured some gases from
across the Universe...
--
ah

I think all elements were there in the beginning in the spiralling
cloud of dust andgasout of which the Earth and other planets
formes. The Earth had lots ofgasin the biggining, but being so
close to the Sun, lost much of it over time due to the solar wind and
the Earth's relatively modest gravity. However, its magnetic field
did help it keep as much atmosphere as it has.

Double-A- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How did the heavy elements all gather in the solar plane?

von Neumann machines. Lots of 'em.
--
ah