NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...a-second-home/

However, researchers have proposed a way to make Mars more habitable -- by creating an artificial magnetic field to reduce radiation levels.

To combat some of the main barriers to sending humans to Mars, as reported by Universe Today, last week, NASA hosted a discussion and presentation group called the Planetary Science Vision 2050 Workshop.

At the event, scientists and researchers discussed the future possibilities of space exploration, and during one talk, NASA Planetary Science Division Director Dr. Jim Green proposed ways to deploy a magnetic shield around the planet which could act as a barrier to radiation and reduce the need for extreme protective equipment.

The proposal (.PDF) relies on the theory that over four billion years ago, the planet's magnetic field vanished, turning the planet from a warm, wet environment to a dry husk. Without returning some kind of magnetic field to Mars, this situation will not change.

Green proposes that by placing a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1 Lagrange Point, a man-made magnetosphere sphere would cradle the entire planet.

The team says that previous tests in lab conditions suggest that inflatable structures could potentially generate a magnetic dipole field at a level of perhaps 1 or 2 Tesla, protecting against both radiation and solar winds.

In addition, such a field could result in Mars' atmosphere thickening over time, creating a greenhouse effect which could increase the planet's surface temperature by up to four degrees and melt northern polar ice caps.

While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful," the scientists insist that it is not outside the realm of possibility, and could assist in the future exploration of the planet.

On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...a-second-home/


However, researchers have proposed a way to make Mars more habitable
-- by creating an artificial magnetic field to reduce radiation levels.

To combat some of the main barriers to sending humans to Mars, as
reported by Universe Today, last week, NASA hosted a discussion and
presentation group called the Planetary Science Vision 2050 Workshop.

At the event, scientists and researchers discussed the future
possibilities of space exploration, and during one talk, NASA
Planetary Science Division Director Dr. Jim Green proposed ways to
deploy a magnetic shield around the planet which could act as a
barrier to radiation and reduce the need for extreme protective
equipment.

The proposal (.PDF) relies on the theory that over four billion years
ago, the planet's magnetic field vanished, turning the planet from a
warm, wet environment to a dry husk. Without returning some kind of
magnetic field to Mars, this situation will not change.

Green proposes that by placing a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1
Lagrange Point, a man-made magnetosphere sphere would cradle the
entire planet.

how far away is Mars L1 Lagrange Point from Mars ?

about 141,000,000 miles.

how does magnetic field strength decline with distance ?

1/d^2 ?

so you need a magnet of at least 2*10^16 telsa ? ?


why not just put it on the surface ? by the way, you will have to water
cool it too.

extra credit questions;

1. how much water is needed to cool magnet that generates a 1 T field
100,000 miles away. (how is this water stored?)

2. how much electricity in megawatts is required to run magnet, then to
pump water.

3. what % of partials will be deflected away and outside a 100 mile zone
on the surface around the magnet? (assume 98% speed of light)

4. What type of partials will be hardly by magnet ?





While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

Dear S Ergio:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 7:16:41 AM UTC-7, S Ergio wrote:
On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...a-second-home/
....
While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

So did/does the inventor of the Alcubierre drive...

David A. Smith

On 3/8/2017 9:16 AM, S Ergio wrote:
On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...a-second-home/


how far away is Mars L1 Lagrange Point from Mars ?

about 141,000,000 miles.

You're completely wrong. You can be sure that you're completely wrong
because that distance is greater than the distance between the Earth and
the Sun! The distance you came up with is the distance between the Sun
and Mars.

The L1 point for Mars is actually about 655,000 miles, or about 1
million kilometers.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...point+Mars+Sun

how does magnetic field strength decline with distance ?

1/d^2 ?

so you need a magnet of at least 2*10^16 telsa ? ?

Earth's magnetic field at the surface is only 54 microteslas. The
devices they are talking about are about 1 or 2 teslas, which should be
enough to protect Mars.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...magnetic+field

why not just put it on the surface ? by the way, you will have to water
cool it too.

On the surface, you'd need multiple devices. In orbit, only need the one.

The power source is likely to be the Sun, through solar panels. Cooling
through radiators into space.

While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

Why not? You've certainly shown that you don't know what you're talking
about.

Yousuf Khan

On 3/8/2017 10:40 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 3/8/2017 9:16 AM, S Ergio wrote:
On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...a-second-home/



how far away is Mars L1 Lagrange Point from Mars ?

about 141,000,000 miles.

You're completely wrong. You can be sure that you're completely wrong
because that distance is greater than the distance between the Earth and
the Sun! The distance you came up with is the distance between the Sun
and Mars.

The L1 point for Mars is actually about 655,000 miles, or about 1
million kilometers.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...point+Mars+Sun

how does magnetic field strength decline with distance ?

1/d^2 ?

so you need a magnet of at least 2*10^16 telsa ? ?

Earth's magnetic field at the surface is only 54 microteslas. The
devices they are talking about are about 1 or 2 teslas, which should be
enough to protect Mars.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...magnetic+field

why not just put it on the surface ? by the way, you will have to water
cool it too.

On the surface, you'd need multiple devices. In orbit, only need the one.

The power source is likely to be the Sun, through solar panels. Cooling
through radiators into space.

for small energy useage.


While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

Why not? You've certainly shown that you don't know what you're talking
about.

Yousuf Khan

thanks for the info,

that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of
the envelope should do.


so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ?

how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing
particals around?

Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground,
on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma
can a crew take ? a year or two ?

and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from
orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ?

On 3/8/2017 12:51 PM, S Ergio wrote:
thanks for the info,

that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of
the envelope should do.

I'm sure he has, this is just a popular science article which summarizes
his proposal, and gives you an idea about what some scientists have come
up with. It's up to you to go see his original proposal paper, if you
want more details.

so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ?

Actually the magnetic field strength drops away by a factor of inverse
cubed not inverse squared. But it really doesn't matter how strong the
magnetic field is at the surface of Mars, just so long as it's ahead of
Mars and it produces a large enough bow shock pattern, similar to how
the bow shock pattern is produced ahead of Earth, diverting the solar
wind away from Earth.

how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing
particals around?

Don't know, perhaps they'll find a clever way to use the magnetic field
itself as a propulsion tool to keep it stable in the L1?

Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground,
on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma
can a crew take ? a year or two ?

The magnetic field doesn't protect against any kind of EM radiation, no
matter what. All it protects against is the solar winds. This in turn
creates a shield of the upper atmosphere to protect against the high
energy photons from penetrating into the lower atmosphere.

Fortunately, gamma rays are usually an uncommon type of photons in the
universe, as most of the gamma rays occur inside the cores of stars
during nuclear fusion, and they all get diffused into lower energy
photons by the time they exit the star's photosphere. Most sources of
raw gamma rays are things such as supernovas and quasars, and those are
very directional in their nature. Another advantage is that these
sources of gamma rays are also pretty distant.

and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from
orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ?

Earth's magnetic field doesn't stop cosmic rays either, they tend to hit
the Earth relatively unopposed. Again fortunately due to the fact that
cosmic rays are high energy particles produced by supernovas and active
galactic nuclei, they are relatively rare. Most of the cosmic rays are
diverted by the Sun's magnetic field rather than any single planet's
(though Jupiter's might be strong enough to divert some too).

Most cosmic rays are travelling at relativistic speeds, so no puny
magnetic field short of a magnetar is going to do much to divert any
cosmic rays. We used to use cosmic ray showers in the atmosphere to
detect new particles, prior to the advent of supercolliders.

Yousuf Khan wrote:

On 3/8/2017 12:51 PM, S Ergio wrote:
thanks for the info,

that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of
the envelope should do.

I'm sure he has, this is just a popular science article which summarizes
his proposal, and gives you an idea about what some scientists have come
up with. It's up to you to go see his original proposal paper, if you
want more details.

so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ?

Actually the magnetic field strength drops away by a factor of inverse
cubed not inverse squared. But it really doesn't matter how strong the
magnetic field is at the surface of Mars, just so long as it's ahead of
Mars and it produces a large enough bow shock pattern, similar to how
the bow shock pattern is produced ahead of Earth, diverting the solar
wind away from Earth.

how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing
particals around?

Don't know, perhaps they'll find a clever way to use the magnetic field
itself as a propulsion tool to keep it stable in the L1?

Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground,
on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma
can a crew take ? a year or two ?

The magnetic field doesn't protect against any kind of EM radiation, no
matter what. All it protects against is the solar winds. This in turn
creates a shield of the upper atmosphere to protect against the high
energy photons from penetrating into the lower atmosphere.

Fortunately, gamma rays are usually an uncommon type of photons in the
universe, as most of the gamma rays occur inside the cores of stars
during nuclear fusion, and they all get diffused into lower energy
photons by the time they exit the star's photosphere. Most sources of
raw gamma rays are things such as supernovas and quasars, and those are
very directional in their nature. Another advantage is that these
sources of gamma rays are also pretty distant.

and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from
orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ?

Earth's magnetic field doesn't stop cosmic rays either, they tend to hit
the Earth relatively unopposed. Again fortunately due to the fact that
cosmic rays are high energy particles produced by supernovas and active
galactic nuclei, they are relatively rare. Most of the cosmic rays are
diverted by the Sun's magnetic field rather than any single planet's
(though Jupiter's might be strong enough to divert some too).

Most cosmic rays are travelling at relativistic speeds, so no puny
magnetic field short of a magnetar is going to do much to divert any
cosmic rays. We used to use cosmic ray showers in the atmosphere to
detect new particles, prior to the advent of supercolliders.



"This may sound “fanciful” but new research is starting
to emerge revealing that a miniature magnetsphere can
be used to protect humans
and spacecraft."



He could at least learn how to spel....magnetsphere.
http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf



fan·ci·ful
'fans?f?l/
adjective
adjective: fanciful

(of a person or their thoughts and ideas) overimaginative and unrealistic.



At least he's honest about his thinking...unrealstic.



Put him in charge of ...NASA.

On 3/8/2017 9:44 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 3/8/2017 12:51 PM, S Ergio wrote:
thanks for the info,

that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of
the envelope should do.

I'm sure he has, this is just a popular science article which summarizes
his proposal, and gives you an idea about what some scientists have come
up with. It's up to you to go see his original proposal paper, if you
want more details.

so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ?

Actually the magnetic field strength drops away by a factor of inverse
cubed not inverse squared.

so it is far weaker than d^(-2),
for a rough order of magnitude, compair 1 mile out vs 655,000 miles out
1/(655000)^3 = 3.56 * 10^(-18)

so if the source could generate a 1 T field a mile away, then 655,000
miles away the field is 3.56 E-18, so the generator has no field on Mars.



But it really doesn't matter how strong the
magnetic field is at the surface of Mars, just so long as it's ahead of
Mars and it produces a large enough bow shock pattern, similar to how
the bow shock pattern is produced ahead of Earth, diverting the solar
wind away from Earth.

but the L1 is not in the path of Sun to Mars, where particles go. It is
at L1 way out of the way, 60 degrees off.
diagram here;
http://www.spaceacademy.net.au/libra...s/lagrangp.htm


how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing
particals around?

Don't know, perhaps they'll find a clever way to use the magnetic field
itself as a propulsion tool to keep it stable in the L1?

nothing to push aginst. one has to eject mass.


Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground,
on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma
can a crew take ? a year or two ?

The magnetic field doesn't protect against any kind of EM radiation, no
matter what. All it protects against is the solar winds. This in turn
creates a shield of the upper atmosphere to protect against the high
energy photons from penetrating into the lower atmosphere.

No such shield on Mars, need a lot of atmosphere, on earth yes, [that is
why we are able to live on the surface of earth, atmosphere blocks most
gammas]


Fortunately, gamma rays are usually an uncommon type of photons in the
universe, as most of the gamma rays occur inside the cores of stars
during nuclear fusion, and they all get diffused into lower energy
photons by the time they exit the star's photosphere. Most sources of
raw gamma rays are things such as supernovas and quasars, and those are
very directional in their nature. Another advantage is that these
sources of gamma rays are also pretty distant.

the sun emits gamma, and being distant does not make them weaker,

I havent found gamma ray radiation levels in space yet, there is a lot
of data NASA has already but they make it very hard to find;

"Measuring Space Radiation Between the Earth
and Mars
As the Mars Odyssey spacecraft made its way to Mars between
April and October 2001, the Mars radiation environment
experiment (MARIE) measured the amounts and kinds of space
radiation the spacecraft encountered along the way. These data
are essential to understanding how much and what kinds of
radiation future space travelers might encounter on a long trip
to explore the red planet.
Now in orbit around Mars, MARIE continues to measure the
amount of harmful radiation at the planet itself. Unlike Earth,
Mars does not have a global magnetic field to shield it from
solar flares and cosmic rays. Mars’ atmosphere is also less
than one percent as thick as the Earth’s. These two factors
make Mars very vulnerable to space radiation.
Aboard the International Space Station and in our own solar
system, NASA researchers continue to quantify the amounts
of space radiation our explorers face every day and will face
in the future. Understanding space radiation will not only protect
the crew currently aboard the International Space Station, but
those first humans who will continue the exploration of our
solar system."


and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from
orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ?

Earth's magnetic field doesn't stop cosmic rays either, they tend to hit
the Earth relatively unopposed.

they get changed, typically they smash into the atmosphere and cause
partical showers, into thousands of less energetic particals, and hit
the surface as a disk shape a few hundred meters across and about 1 or 2
meters thick.

Again fortunately due to the fact that
cosmic rays are high energy particles produced by supernovas and active
galactic nuclei, they are relatively rare.

sun makes a lot of them for local use, sun spots etc

Most of the cosmic rays are
diverted by the Sun's magnetic field rather than any single planet's
(though Jupiter's might be strong enough to divert some too).

"diverted" only means the ray's path was changed, not that the partical
went away.
and the ray travels so fast a local magnetic field has little time to
affect change


Most cosmic rays are travelling at relativistic speeds, so no puny
magnetic field short of a magnetar is going to do much to divert any
cosmic rays. We used to use cosmic ray showers in the atmosphere to
detect new particles, prior to the advent of supercolliders.

yep. with a PMT, some plastic, and Oscope you can detect them coming
in. (all bought off ebay)

so there are some questionable points that NASA guy's idea still has.
I think he moved it from the surface, because the path would not be long
enough to effect change, and moving to L1 is good for stability of
orbit, but not for diverting particals in path from sun, then the loss
infield strength...

In sci.astro message , Wed, 8 Mar 2017
08:16:28, S Ergio posted:

On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...agnetic-field-
to-make-mars-a-second-home/

Green proposes that by placing a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1
Lagrange Point, a man-made magnetosphere sphere would cradle the
entire planet.

Sort of. The dipole would shield the dayside of the atmosphere of Mars
from the solar wind. By the way, in the past, at least some respected
authors called L1 "L2" and L2 "L1". The proposal is not by Green; it is
by Green /et al/.

how far away is Mars L1 Lagrange Point from Mars ?
about 141,000,000 miles.
Very wrong.

how does magnetic field strength decline with distance ?
1/d^2 ?
For that, you need a monopole source. Point-dipole fields go as d^-3.

so you need a magnet of at least 2*10^16 telsa ? ?
The field strength at the magnet is of itself not important. It is the
dipole moment which creates the far field. Referees should not have
accepted http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf as it is,
on those grounds.

why not just put it on the surface ? by the way, you will have to water
cool it too.
Because that is a different, and not useful, idea; superconductors were
discovered about 11 decades ago. Use currently-available high-
temperature superconductors or better, and cool by shades as will be
done for JWST; allow the magnet to cool by radiation into the rest of
the Universe.


extra credit questions;

1. how much water is needed to cool magnet that generates a 1 T field
100,000 miles away. (how is this water stored?)
None; why 100,000 miles, as according to you L1 is at 141,000,000 miles.
(in a zero-litre container).

2. how much electricity in megawatts is required to run magnet, then to
pump water.
None. But energy will be needed to create the dipole moment initially.

3. what % of partials will be deflected away and outside a 100 mile
zone on the surface around the magnet? (assume 98% speed of light)
Wrong question.

4. What type of partials will be hardly by magnet ?
Parse failure. Try writing in your native language.

While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

Why not? NASA must have canteen staff, toilet cleaners, and PR people.
But the esteemed originators should not be criticised for the failure of
/hoi polloi/ to understand their published proposal, and perhaps to read
it.



The proposal is to deflect the solar wind, without adding energy to it.
Therefore, the wind will press the magnet outwards; the magnet must be a
little inwards from L1, because of that and of radiation pressure.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Merlyn Web Site - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.

On 3/11/2017 3:54 PM, Dr J R Stockton wrote:
In sci.astro message , Wed, 8 Mar 2017
08:16:28, S Ergio posted:

On 3/8/2017 6:42 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nasa-pr...agnetic-field-
to-make-mars-a-second-home/

Green proposes that by placing a magnetic dipole shield at the Mars L1
Lagrange Point, a man-made magnetosphere sphere would cradle the
entire planet.

Sort of. The dipole would shield the dayside of the atmosphere of Mars
from the solar wind. By the way, in the past, at least some respected
authors called L1 "L2" and L2 "L1". The proposal is not by Green; it is
by Green /et al/.

how far away is Mars L1 Lagrange Point from Mars ?
about 141,000,000 miles.
Very wrong.

how does magnetic field strength decline with distance ?
1/d^2 ?
For that, you need a monopole source. Point-dipole fields go as d^-3.

no, the fields vary as d^n where n is between 2 and 4, and n is also a
function of d, and orentation of the field.


so you need a magnet of at least 2*10^16 telsa ? ?
The field strength at the magnet is of itself not important. It is the
dipole moment which creates the far field.

field strength is *the key* design requirement, it drives the rest of
the design.

Referees should not have
accepted http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf as it is,
on those grounds.

why not just put it on the surface ? by the way, you will have to water
cool it too.
Because that is a different, and not useful, idea; superconductors were
discovered about 11 decades ago. Use currently-available high-
temperature superconductors or better,

cooling is to lower copper coil losses, high temp superconducters are
not yet reliable for this, unless you have a url to a 1 T magnet using
one...

I think it gets down to watts, if 100 W it probably could be done, if
2000, probably not.


and cool by shades as will be
done for JWST;
allow the magnet to cool by radiation into the rest of
the Universe.

but all that is limited by # Watts used, and if it is in sunlight, which
it is.



extra credit questions;

1. how much water is needed to cool magnet that generates a 1 T field
100,000 miles away. (how is this water stored?)
None; why 100,000 miles, as according to you L1 is at 141,000,000 miles.
(in a zero-litre container).

you evade the question, how much heat is generated by the super-cooling
refrigeration unit for a 1 T field at 100,000 miles ? ( leave "T at
100,000 miles" as a variable) How many Watts does will the
refrigeration unit take to keep the unit cool? how many solar panels ?
how much storage capacity is needed ? How much refrigeration fluid is
lost each year ? (NASA has supercooled stuff in flight, limited life
time due to fluid loss)


2. how much electricity in megawatts is required to run magnet, then to
pump water.
None. But energy will be needed to create the dipole moment initially.

not so, see above, [Im sure NASA has info on this, effecient
supercooling refegeration, not sure about application to a magnet, but
they probably have a study on it]


3. what % of partials will be deflected away and outside a 100 mile
zone on the surface around the magnet? (assume 98% speed of light)
Wrong question.

yep, wrong question to you, as you do not have any answer.


4. What type of partials will be hardly by magnet ?
Parse failure. Try writing in your native language.

you engrlish teacher ? this is physics group.


While Green admits the idea is somewhat "fanciful,"

this dude works at NASA ???

Why not? NASA must have canteen staff, toilet cleaners, and PR people.
But the esteemed originators should not be criticised for the failure of
/hoi polloi/ to understand their published proposal, and perhaps to read
it.

need more engineering before reclassifying from pipe dream to possable.

The proposal is to deflect the solar wind, without adding energy to it.
Therefore, the wind will press the magnet outwards; the magnet must be a
little inwards from L1, because of that and of radiation pressure.


which directly goes to what the field strength should be, .