Street Light & Air Conditioner

In message , Gordon
Gekko IDCC on the Nasdaq writes
While I am a firm advocate to get rid of light pollution, especially
the blinding lights now installed at most gas stations, and many
closed businesses

I don't see how closed businesses will be illuminated - no one to pay
the bills. US gas stations I agree you need sunglasses to visit at
night. They believe the extra light helps attract passing trade - they
may be right... moths to a flame.

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

This seems unlikely - prime time for burglaries in the UK is mid
afternoon when no one is at home typically around the shopping and
school run time. I'd expect it to be even more like that in a country
where most homeowners have guns. Do you have any evidence to support
your claim?

The one thing that is strongly correlated is accidents on transport
systems and hours of darkness (historical records for the UK railways
show that accidents where visibility was a factor soar in unlit regions
during night time hours ).


The best thing to do is to see if the streetlighting division will
install the low power orange lights, instead of the high power sodium
pinkish ones, the orange ones spread light down, while the other ones
lose most of the light to the sky

That might be true if your region uses properly shielded full cutoff low
pressure sodium fixtures (like Belgium and USA near optical
observatories for instance) but it certainly isn't true in the UK. Here
LPS has a very bad reputation because the standard design sends almost
30% of the light skywards.

They are so energy efficient that no thought was given to optimising
them. They are still astronomer friendly even with this handicap because
their almost monochromatic light is fairly easily filtered out. They
would be a lot better in full cutoff luminaire fittings though (as used
near observatories).

HPS are increasingly being used for new street lighting and although
they are usually well installed in full cutoff designs the albedo of the
ground still reflects 10% of their output skywards. The problem with HPS
is there is no way to filter it out effectively.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:24:44 GMT, Chris L Peterson
wrote:

On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC on the
Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

There is an increasing body of evidence that indicates very little correlation
between lighting and crime. There is even anecdotal evidence that crime occurs
preferentially in well lit areas. Criminals feel safer and more in control when
they can see, too. I'm not aware of any studies showing that increased street
lighting reduces crime. Street lighting is intended primarily for reasons of
pedestrian and traffic safety, and there are probably at least as many locations
where poorly designed lighting makes the conditions more dangerous as there are
locations where it makes things safer.

_______________________________________________ __

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com


this is what i understand, too. i think the current national outdoor
lighting standard is focused on reducing overlamping and the glare
that results. to our benefit, tasking the light, applying the right
wattage and covering the uplight benefits us dark sky folk, too.

it makes me nuts to drive thru the occasional McMansion neighborhoods
where those bozos illuminate the front of their houses...
who are they trying to impress? it doesn't impress me, thats for
sure.
or the more innocent folks that have complete globe house/yard lamps.
why the house lamp folks have to produce "cool looking" lights like
that steam me.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:24:44 GMT, Chris L Peterson
wrote:

On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC on the
Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

There is an increasing body of evidence that indicates very little correlation
between lighting and crime. There is even anecdotal evidence that crime occurs
preferentially in well lit areas. Criminals feel safer and more in control when
they can see, too. I'm not aware of any studies showing that increased street
lighting reduces crime. Street lighting is intended primarily for reasons of
pedestrian and traffic safety, and there are probably at least as many locations
where poorly designed lighting makes the conditions more dangerous as there are
locations where it makes things safer.

_______________________________________________ __

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com


this is what i understand, too. i think the current national outdoor
lighting standard is focused on reducing overlamping and the glare
that results. to our benefit, tasking the light, applying the right
wattage and covering the uplight benefits us dark sky folk, too.

it makes me nuts to drive thru the occasional McMansion neighborhoods
where those bozos illuminate the front of their houses...
who are they trying to impress? it doesn't impress me, thats for
sure.
or the more innocent folks that have complete globe house/yard lamps.
why the house lamp folks have to produce "cool looking" lights like
that steam me.

WayneH wrote in message . ..
On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC
on the Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.

Wayne Hoffman
http://home.pacbell.net/w6wlr/
33° 49' 17" N, 117° 56' 40" W
"Don't Look Down"

Here's another, there are the names, you can look it up Mr. Baloney


Enhanced street lighting is another crime prevention strategy that has
been evaluated, and demonstrated to work. Professors David Farrington
of Cambridge University, and Brandon Welsh of the University of
Massachusetts, prepared a systematic review of 13 separate studies
conducted in the United Kingdom and the United States. They reported
that enhanced street lighting reduces crime by about 20%.

WayneH wrote in message . ..
On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC
on the Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.

Wayne Hoffman
http://home.pacbell.net/w6wlr/
33° 49' 17" N, 117° 56' 40" W
"Don't Look Down"

Here's another, there are the names, you can look it up Mr. Baloney


Enhanced street lighting is another crime prevention strategy that has
been evaluated, and demonstrated to work. Professors David Farrington
of Cambridge University, and Brandon Welsh of the University of
Massachusetts, prepared a systematic review of 13 separate studies
conducted in the United Kingdom and the United States. They reported
that enhanced street lighting reduces crime by about 20%.

"Gordon Gekko IDCC on the Nasdaq" wrote in message
om...
WayneH wrote in message
. ..
Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.
snip
Convenience Store Crime Prevention...

There are claims to "studies" showing lighting increases crime, but the
truth is, darkness helps crime. If we try telling people that lighting
increases crime, we lose credibility. We are way ahead if instead, we talk
about efficiency, lower electrical costs, reduced need for new electrical
generating plants, reduced glare = safer driving etc. These are arguments
people will hear and understand and believe.

Clear (dark?) Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

"Gordon Gekko IDCC on the Nasdaq" wrote in message
om...
WayneH wrote in message
. ..
Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.
snip
Convenience Store Crime Prevention...

There are claims to "studies" showing lighting increases crime, but the
truth is, darkness helps crime. If we try telling people that lighting
increases crime, we lose credibility. We are way ahead if instead, we talk
about efficiency, lower electrical costs, reduced need for new electrical
generating plants, reduced glare = safer driving etc. These are arguments
people will hear and understand and believe.

Clear (dark?) Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

WayneH wrote in message . ..
On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC
on the Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.

Wayne Hoffman
http://home.pacbell.net/w6wlr/
33° 49' 17" N, 117° 56' 40" W
"Don't Look Down"


From what i can see there are only 1 major study in england that says
lights don't reduce crime, which the study has been debunked in one of
my posts

and one american study that was inconclusive

u know how hard a study like that would be to begin with

use your common sense, do u feel safe pulling up to a mall parking lot
in complete darkness, do u feel that leaving your car there is a good
idea, if you were a criminal would u rip off a car in the dark lot or
the one lit up well where u are visible to the main road,

would you wait in darkness to rob someones wallet, or would u wait in
a well lit parking lot where the potential victim can see you

look i agree with you that we need sensible lighting, but unfotunately
in this time, we do need lighting, just not the white, pink, high
glare ones that blind you, we need the low power orange ones that
reflect to the ground, not to the sky

we need legislation to stop the gas stations from doing this, because
even if crime is reduced by the blinding lights, they are not worth it

it is a tradeoff, because i can assure you that even though i don't
like the stage like gas station lights, u can bet, their crime has
gone down, no criminal wants to be on a stage

however i think the stores need to trade off, and get more responsible
lighting

i have another question, do u want to walk down a dark street or well
lit one

like i said it is all common sense, u know that all studies are
flawed, although studies are needed, u have to take them with a grain
of salt, also u must pay attention to who is funding the study

like for example the recent one that said that prozac or one of the
anti depressants was good for children with depression, well that
study was flawed and it was funed by Pfizer, yet the media reports it
like it was legit science, **** like that should be criminal

remember i am on your side, i believe in smart lighting, but i am not
blind to the fact that we need lighting

WayneH wrote in message . ..
On 28 Aug 2003 21:04:34 -0700, (Gordon Gekko IDCC
on the Nasdaq) wrote:

Streetlights are very important to control crime, without them you
will notice a huge increase in car and home robberies

Baloney! I challenge you to cite a single credible study that
supports this poppycock. To the contrary, the studies I've read seem
to directly contradict the premise.

Wayne Hoffman
http://home.pacbell.net/w6wlr/
33° 49' 17" N, 117° 56' 40" W
"Don't Look Down"


From what i can see there are only 1 major study in england that says
lights don't reduce crime, which the study has been debunked in one of
my posts

and one american study that was inconclusive

u know how hard a study like that would be to begin with

use your common sense, do u feel safe pulling up to a mall parking lot
in complete darkness, do u feel that leaving your car there is a good
idea, if you were a criminal would u rip off a car in the dark lot or
the one lit up well where u are visible to the main road,

would you wait in darkness to rob someones wallet, or would u wait in
a well lit parking lot where the potential victim can see you

look i agree with you that we need sensible lighting, but unfotunately
in this time, we do need lighting, just not the white, pink, high
glare ones that blind you, we need the low power orange ones that
reflect to the ground, not to the sky

we need legislation to stop the gas stations from doing this, because
even if crime is reduced by the blinding lights, they are not worth it

it is a tradeoff, because i can assure you that even though i don't
like the stage like gas station lights, u can bet, their crime has
gone down, no criminal wants to be on a stage

however i think the stores need to trade off, and get more responsible
lighting

i have another question, do u want to walk down a dark street or well
lit one

like i said it is all common sense, u know that all studies are
flawed, although studies are needed, u have to take them with a grain
of salt, also u must pay attention to who is funding the study

like for example the recent one that said that prozac or one of the
anti depressants was good for children with depression, well that
study was flawed and it was funed by Pfizer, yet the media reports it
like it was legit science, **** like that should be criminal

remember i am on your side, i believe in smart lighting, but i am not
blind to the fact that we need lighting

"Gordon Gekko IDCC on the Nasdaq" wrote in message
om...
WayneH wrote in message
. ..
Enhanced street lighting is another crime prevention strategy that has
been evaluated, and demonstrated to work. Professors David Farrington
of Cambridge University, and Brandon Welsh of the University of
Massachusetts, prepared a systematic review of 13 separate studies
conducted in the United Kingdom and the United States. They reported
that enhanced street lighting reduces crime by about 20%.

The review found that the 8 US studies were equally split - 4 found lighting
effective, and 4 found lighting to be ineffective. 5 UK studies found
consistent correlation between improved lighting and crime reduction.

However - here's a snippet from the abstract to the article
"Since night-time crimes did not decrease more than day-time crimes, a
theory focusing on the role of street lighting in increasing community pride
seems more plausible than a theory focusing on increased surveillance"

In my view a distinct "not proven" outcome.
The need for more study is clear.
Abstract available at
http://www.asc41.com/www/2002/abspp056.htm
..