Long cables to power plasma rockets to orbit.

On Jan 16, 10:59 am, Puppet_Sock wrote:
...
Never mind that there is no way to have a gigawatt transmit
through some kind of contact point moving at many km/s.
....

Take a look at the images linked below. They might make a light bulb
go off, so to speak.

http://www.boxyit.com/r/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DumgUdJhzpo


Bob Clark ;-)

Robert Clark wrote in news:07e4ad2c-647c-4ced-
:

On Jan 16, 10:59 am, Puppet_Sock wrote:
...
Never mind that there is no way to have a gigawatt transmit
through some kind of contact point moving at many km/s.
....

Take a look at the images linked below. They might make a light bulb
go off, so to speak.

http://www.boxyit.com/r/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DumgUdJhzpo

The actual power levels involved in these examples are miniscule
and mean nothing to your arguments.

Gigawatt levels of power can't be transmitted over long ranges without
enormous losses and big collectors/antennas and major complications.

Your basic concept and continuing efforts to somehow justify it are
totally wet. And this is not the first time you've attempted to
'fly by wire' to orbit in public forums. The previous times didn't teach
you anything, did they?

--Damon

On Jan 24, 12:32 pm, Damon Hill wrote:
Robert Clark wrote in news:07e4ad2c-647c-4ced-
:

On Jan 16, 10:59 am, Puppet_Sock wrote:
...
Never mind that there is no way to have a gigawatt transmit
through some kind of contact point moving at many km/s.
....

Take a look at the images linked below. They might make a light bulb
go off, so to speak.

http://www.boxyit.com/r/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DumgUdJhzpo

The actual power levels involved in these examples are miniscule
and mean nothing to your arguments.
...


"A word to the wise is sufficient."


Bob Clark ;-)

On Jan 18, 4:40 pm, Robert Clark wrote:
...

For making the cable buoyant we might use the principle of a hot air
balloon instead. Since the large power going through the cable would
create a lot of heat, why not use that heat instead of trying to get
rid of it? You would put a thin hollow, flexible shell around the
cable that expanded and rose from the air rising due to the heat given
off by the cable. We could make the thin hollow shell itself
conducting to be contacted by the tether from the rocket or have an
additional cable running above it.
...

While doing a web search I found a report on creating inflatable
vacuum chambers, where the walls are filled with pressurized gas for
strength. Such chambers could even be buoyant if the walls were filled
with a lighter than air gas such as helium.
This then could be used to extend a vacuum travel path from the ground
all the way to high altitude for orbital rocket launch.

Stability Analysis of an Inflatable Vacuum Chamber.
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0610222v4


Bob Clark

Are you channeling Rube Goldberg's spirit, or are you just
enjoying a joke?

--Damon, makin' my rockets the old fashioned way

On Jan 16, 10:59 am, Puppet_Sock wrote:
...

Never mind that there is no way to have a gigawatt transmit
through some kind of contact point moving at many km/s.
...

This reports on a rocket sled reaching above Mach 8 at the Holloman
Air Force base:

Secret Test at Air Force Base Aims to Break Land Speed Record.
Published on: January 24, 2008
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...s/4246209.html

The Fastest Ride On Earth
Published in the September 2003 issue.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...s/1280831.html

The latest news on the 2008 test is that they were not able to reach
the Mach 8.9 they were aiming for, but prior tests have exceeded Mach
8.
What's interesting is that the several hundred pound sled rides on
"slippers" along the rails and the last several thousand feet of the
test track are enclosed in a tent containing low density helium to
lessen air drag.
At the highest speeds the slippers ride on a thin layer of helium that
lessens the friction between the slippers and the rails. A nice
picture that shows the slippers on the rails is he

Navy Tests Super-Powered Rail Gun & 6500-mph Secret Machine (With
Video).
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/4247543.html

This idea might also work for transmitting the electrical power from
the long power line to the rocket's conducting tether in my proposal
without the extreme friction at the highest Mach speeds. The tether
would have slippers at its end sliding along the power cable. At the
very highest speeds the air between the slippers would likely become
ionized and therefore highly conducting. Then even though the slippers
would not be touching the power line, the thin layer of ionized air
would still conduct the electrical power to the tether.
If the inflatable vacuum chamber can indeed be made to work (it has
not yet been successfully demonstrated in experiments), then it might
be used around the Holloman track rather than the helium shroud. This
might allow orbital velocity to be reached with just the multi-stage
rockets now being used.
This though would remove the advantage that exists now with the
slippers riding on a thin layer of gas. Perhaps a very low density
residual gas would be sufficient to raise the slippers above the
rails. As it is now you have to have the helium at the same pressure
as the surrounding air since the thin tent would not be strong enough
to hold back the outside pressure without the equalizing pressure of
the helium.
The plasma thrusters I discuss and the Vasimr engine are designed to
work in vacuum. If the lightweight inflatable vacuum chamber does
indeed work we might use it to allow these advanced forms of
propulsion to be used on the sled rather than the multistage chemical
rockets now used. The advantage would be they have such high exhaust
velocities the fuel is only a small proportion of the rockets mass,
about the same fraction as is the ratio of the rocket's ending
velocity to the exhaust velocity. This means you would need a much
smaller vehicle for reaching orbital velocity.
The Vasimr engine has been called unsuitable for Earth launch because
it works in vacuum and because of the large size of the (nuclear)
power plant needed to run it. However, it may be by using the
inflatable vacuum chamber idea and eliminating the power plant and
supplying the power from the rails or cables would make it feasible
for Earth launch.


Bob Clark

This company proposes to lift windmills to high altitude, up to
45,000 ft, 15 km, to send electrical power to ground level over
aluminum power cables:

Windmills in the Sky.
A bold plan to tap the jet stream and boost our nation's energy
supply.
By Michael Behar Posted 11.21.2005 at 2:00 am.
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/articl.../windmills-sky

They propose using a 3 inch thick aluminum tether with a Vectran core
for strength to hold these craft in place which will also serve to
deliver the power to the ground, at up to 20 megawatts. They argue the
rotors on the craft could be used to keep them aloft as well as
generate the power.
This then could even serve as a "free" power supply for the electrical-
cable powered rocket.


Bob Clark

"Robert Clark" wrote in message
...
| This company proposes to lift windmills to high altitude, up to
| 45,000 ft, 15 km, to send electrical power to ground level over
| aluminum power cables:
|
| Windmills in the Sky.
| A bold plan to tap the jet stream and boost our nation's energy
| supply.
| By Michael Behar Posted 11.21.2005 at 2:00 am.
| http://www.popsci.com/scitech/articl.../windmills-sky
|
| They propose using a 3 inch thick aluminum tether with a Vectran core
| for strength to hold these craft in place which will also serve to
| deliver the power to the ground, at up to 20 megawatts. They argue the
| rotors on the craft could be used to keep them aloft as well as
| generate the power.
| This then could even serve as a "free" power supply for the electrical-
| cable powered rocket.
|
I can't wait to see Batman, Robin, Superman and Spiderman
on the maintenance roster.

On Feb 8, 11:53 am, Robert Clark wrote:
...
Theplasma thrusters I discuss and the Vasimr engine are designed to
work in vacuum. If the lightweight inflatable vacuum chamber does
indeed work we might use it to allow these advanced forms of
propulsion to be used on the sled rather than the multistage chemical
rockets now used. The advantage would be they have such high exhaust
velocities the fuel is only a small proportion of the rockets mass,
about the same fraction as is the ratio of the rocket's ending
velocity to the exhaust velocity. This means you would need a much
smaller vehicle for reaching orbital velocity.
The Vasimr engine has been called unsuitable for Earth launch because
it works in vacuum and because of the large size of the (nuclear)
power plant needed to run it. However, it may be by using the
inflatable vacuum chamber idea and eliminating the power plant and
supplying the power from the rails or cables would make it feasible
for Earth launch.

Bob Clark

Both plasma thrusters and the Vasimr engine work in vacuum. To allow
them to work in the atmosphere we might be able to use the recently
invented "plasma window". This uses a constrained high temperature
plasma to separate a high vacuum from standard pressure air. It allows
high velocity electron beams to pass through it while keeping out the
outside air. Then this might also work to allow the high velocity
plasma ions to pass through while keeping out the outside air.
Andrew Nowicki suggested this as a means to keep out the air while
maintaining the vacuum with, for example, gun launch systems which
would still allow the rocket to pass through:

PLASMA WINDOWS.
http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SPBI1PW.HTM

Another possibility might be instead to use plasma thrusters that
operate on atmospheric air rather rather than on board fuel. There are
plasma torches that are used for cutting thick steel plates that
operate on atmospheric air or sometimes nitrogen gas. These plasmas in
the torch can be formed by electric arcs or by microwave heating. They
can reach temperatures of 20,000 °K:

DEVELOPMENT OF AN INDUCTIVELY HEATED PLASMA WIND TUNNEL (THE
"PLASMATRON").
http://www.vki.ac.be/research/themes/aeros/plasma.html

Plasma Pyrolysis.
http://www.plasmaindia.com/medicalpyro.html

D.C. plasma torches.
http://www.mi.infn.it/DIP/SEZIONI/btorcia.html

This report discusses a simple microwave heated plasma torch able to
reach 5000 °C:

Simple Microwave Plasma Source at Atmospheric Pressure.
"We have developed a thermal plasma source operating without
electrodes. One electrodeless torch is the microwave plasma-torch,
which can produce plasmas in large quantities. We can generate
plasma at an atmospheric pressure by making use of the same magnetrons
used as commercial microwave ovens. Most of the magnetrons are
operated at the frequency of 2.45 GHz; the magnetron
power microwave is about 1 kW. Electromagnetic waves from the
magnetrons propagate through a shorted waveguide. Plasma was generated
under a resonant condition, by an auxiliary ignition system. The
plasma is stabilized by vortex stabilization. Also, a high-power and
high-efficiency microwave plasma-torch has been operated in air by
combining two microwave plasma sources with 1 kW, 2.45 GHz. They are
arranged in series to generate a high-power plasma flame. The second
torch adds all its power to the plasma flame of the first torch.
Basically, electromagnetic waves in the waveguide were studied by a
High Frequency Structure Simulator (HFSS) code and preliminary
experiments were conducted."
http://icpr.snu.ac.kr/resource/wop.p...042S030876.pdf

These plasma torches are not used for propulsion so do not generate
high exit speeds. However, simple application of de Laval nozzles
would allow them to be used as thrusters from the high temperatures
produced if high pressures also were produced:

De Laval nozzle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Laval_nozzle

To insure the high pressures required would be generated we could use
the principle used in ramjets and scramjets. Here the air stream being
greatly slowed down generates high pressures in front of the engine
that stops the heated fuel, or air plasma in this case, from leaving
in the front. The problems with getting the combustion to operate at
hypersonic speeds in scramjets wouldn't apply in this case since the
air would be heated by electric or EM fields. Note also the limited
energy available from chemical reactions would also not apply in this
case.
Instead of ram/scramjets we could also used pulse jets. These
generate high pressure by closing and opening the intakes and applying
the heating in rapid pulses.
We would also need means of cooling the chamber walls from the high
temperature plasma. We might be able to use methods such as
regenerative cooling or transpiration cooling commonly used with
liquid fueled rockets. Here, some of the fuel is made to flow over the
inside or outside of the chamber walls to draw off some of the applied
heat. Since the amount of fuel used for the cooling in liquid fuel
rockets is such a small proportion of the fuel carried, the cooling
liquid required probably in this case as well would be low.
Another possible choice for cooling might be the swirled air
technique used in the "Simple Microwave Plasma Source at Atmospheric
Pressure" report.

Bob Clark