If Liberty bells hatch hadnt blown?

In article ,
says...
Perhaps I'm missing something, but would CC have flown? I find it odd,
in retrospect, that for the first landing they'd take a rookie... not
that it's really significant, but I'm sure I saw a comment somewhere
about an all-vet crew being a concious choice.

I dunno here, and I've wondered if C.C. or Al Bean would have flown had that
swap not been made. NASA HQ might have had a few words if Deke put a rookie on
the crew. I dunno about C.C. but Deke clearly had a lot of respect for Al Bean
as he was made backup commander for Gemini 10...I am therefore inclined to
think he would have signed off on an Apollo 11 with Beano aboard.

I agree. Beano was the first of his group to be named a CDR (even though
it was a backup CDR slot, first for Gemini XI and later for Gemini X,
after the move-ups resulting from Bassett and See's deaths). Even though
Al had speculated that he must have been on Deke or Shepard's **** list,
because he was taken out of rotation for mainline Apollo to head up the
AAP office, Deke does say in his autobiography that Bean was put in AAP
because it was a mess, and Bean was one of the few guys Deke trusted to
get it into shape.

So, both CC and Bean were well respected in the astronaut corps, as well
as by their superiors. And LMP was the lowest rank on an Apollo crew.
So I doubt that anyone would have squawked if either of them had ended up
on the first landing crew.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

In article ,
says...
Prior to Apollo 13 Deke wouldn't pick a rookie as CMP. But I believe you're
right that the crews for 10 and 11 were deliberately chosen with all-veteran
astronauts.

You realize that prior to the Apollo 8 and 9 swap the Apollo 11 crew could have
been Conrad, Gordon and Bean...the early Apollo crews were largely determined
by who rotated out of Gemini when.

Yeah -- but as I stated in another thread, Deke assembled backup crews
for the first three Apollos that outshone the prime crews in many ways.
He threw the best guys he felt he had onto the backup crews for the first
three flights, figuring one of them would end up being the first landing
crew.

Even so, Deke was ready to give Apollo 11 to Borman, Lovell and Anders,
had Borman wanted it. Frank Borman turned down the chance to fly the
first lunar landing. The person most ****ed off about this was Bill
Anders, of course... though, to be honest, Mike Collins might well have
been rotated into the Apollo 11 crew and Shakey given the BCDR job. So
Collins might well have ended up the Apollo 11 CMP regardless of what
Frank Borman decided...

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

Even so, Deke was ready to give Apollo 11 to Borman, Lovell and Anders,
had Borman wanted it. Frank Borman turned down the chance to fly the
first lunar landing. The person most ****ed off about this was Bill
Anders, of course... though, to be honest, Mike Collins might well have
been rotated into the Apollo 11 crew and Shakey given the BCDR job. So
Collins might well have ended up the Apollo 11 CMP regardless of what
Frank Borman decided...

What would have happened to Armstrong's crew what Deke broken rotation and
assigned Borman to Apollo 11? I always figured Neil would have then become
backup for 11, or at absolute worst moved over to AAP which is possible if we
go by your scenario where Collins becomes the CMP on an 11 with Borman and
Anders. Lovell would have flown three times...Armstrong once...Shakey would be
frankly a bit over-qualified to fly as CMP.

It would have been a crappy deal if that happened Neil and Buzz, since once Big
Al Shepard returned to flight status, whoever backed up 11 was pointed at the
ill-fated Apollo 13. To go through the backup rotation twice and end up with
the "successful failure".

Heck, it would mean Neil's second flight would have major problems as
well...some might think he was in a bit of a jinx when it came to flights.

-A.L.

Doug... wrote:

Beano was the first of his group to be named a CDR (even though
it was a backup CDR slot, first for Gemini XI and later for
Gemini X, after the move-ups resulting from Bassett and See's
deaths).

Are you sure about this? I thought that the Bean/Williams crew was
only put together to replace the backup G10 crew of Lovell/Aldrin who
were moved to G9 backup when See and Bassett were killed. Had the G11
prime and backup crews even been named at the time of See's and
Bassett's deaths?

Jim Davis

In article ,
says...
Doug... wrote:

Beano was the first of his group to be named a CDR (even though
it was a backup CDR slot, first for Gemini XI and later for
Gemini X, after the move-ups resulting from Bassett and See's
deaths).

Are you sure about this? I thought that the Bean/Williams crew was
only put together to replace the backup G10 crew of Lovell/Aldrin who
were moved to G9 backup when See and Bassett were killed. Had the G11
prime and backup crews even been named at the time of See's and
Bassett's deaths?

I've worked through this one a few times, and while the GT-XI and GT-XII
backup crews had not been named at the time of the shake-up, Deke tended
to put crew groups together and keep them together over time. The same
people tended to work together in their journeys through the rotation.
For example, either Conrad or Gordon (or both) were involved in crews
for Apollos 9, 12, 15 and 18. Deke originally wanted to have John Young
and Gene Cernan on crews (backup and prime) for Apollos 7, 10, 13 and 16.
Deke wanted Mike Collins in a similar situation to John Young's in his
own subgroup, serving on prime or backup crews for Apollos 8, 11, 14 and
17.

While people came and went due to other factors, you tended to see the
same faces in each of what I think of as "rotation groups."

Had the eventual Gemini X backup crew been assigned to Gemini XI (which I
believe would have been the case), the names of the prime and backup
crews would have been Conrad, Gordon, Bean and Williams. I don't think
that would have been a coincidence.

I'm absolutely convinced that Al and C.C. would have been the GT-XI
backups had Bassett and See lived and flew GT-IX. After GT-IX, See was
ticketed for AAP and Bassett was to be pointed at the rotation slot in
Apollo that Buzz Aldrin or Gene Cernan eventually occupied. I don't
think either would have gone back into a Gemini backup crew (though Deke
might have used See and not Cooper as his BCDR on GT-XII).

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

Are you sure about this? I thought that the Bean/Williams crew was
only put together to replace the backup G10 crew of Lovell/Aldrin who
were moved to G9 backup when See and Bassett were killed. Had the G11
prime and backup crews even been named at the time of See's and
Bassett's deaths?

According to Deke's book the original backup rotation for the last set of
Gemini missions and early Apollo missions was this:

GT 9: See, Bassett - Stafford, Cernan
GT 10: Young, Collins - Lovell, Aldrin
GT 11: Conrad, Gordon - Armstrong, Bean
GT 12: Stafford, Cernan - See, Williams

AS 204: Grissom, White, Chaffee - McDivitt, Scott, Schweickart
AS 205: Schirra, Eisele, Cunningham - Borman, Bassett, Anders

I don't think 12 had been officially named at that point, and the 205 crew was
probably just a paper idea Deke had told nobody, but Deke stated he planned to
rotate Elliot See to the dead-end job of backing up Gemini 12, then he likely
would have been off to AAP and Charlie Bassett would have been the CMP on
Borman's crew.

After See and Bassett died the rotation was this:

GT 9: Stafford, Cernan - Lovell, Aldrin
GT 10: Young, Collins - Bean, Williams
GT 11: Conrad, Gordon - Armstrong, Anders
GT 12: Stafford, Cernan - Cooper, Cernan

AS 204: Grissom, White, Chaffee - McDivitt, Scott, Schweickart
AS 205: Schirra, Eisele, Cunningham - Borman, Stafford, Collins

He definetly mentions Stafford as a "replacement" for Bassett on Borman's crew.
Collins was probably added as LMP because Anders had been switched over to
backup GT 11.

-A.L.

On 24 Aug 2003 20:10:54 GMT, (MasterShrink) wrote:

After See and Bassett died the rotation was this:

GT 12: Stafford, Cernan - Cooper, Cernan

Cernan was his own backup, or he didn't have one?

In article , "Michael R.
Grabois ... change $ to \"s\"" says...
On 24 Aug 2003 20:10:54 GMT, (MasterShrink) wrote:

After See and Bassett died the rotation was this:

GT 12: Stafford, Cernan - Cooper, Cernan

Cernan was his own backup, or he didn't have one?

Obviously not. That should obviously have read:

GT 12: Lovell, Aldrin - Cooper, Cernan

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

OM said:
Especially when three of them are not only automated from three
different companies, they're using the *same* spokespuppet is
supplying the voice under different names...

Look into the TeleZapper. It really does work. It is becoming pretty
cheap.
--
Kevin Willoughby oSpam

Imagine that, a FROG ON-OFF switch, hardly the work
for test pilots. -- Mike Collins