UFOs cannot be extrarerrestrial - SET is a waste of money

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 25 May, 03:45, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: rhw007 wrote:
:
: :Same with Faster Than
: :Light travel. Neutrinos are a 'mainstream' FTL phenomenon.
:
:Neutinos were once thought to travel at c. They are now known to have
:a small but definite mass and travel c. They have NEVER been
:envisaged to travel c
:
:The particles you may be thinking of are tachyons proposed in some
:versions of M theory. The orthodox view is that as soon as they strike
:matter they are reemitted and (in effect) pass straight through. A
:less othodox view (equally non causality violating) would be that they
:have an (infinite) Feynmann diagram and are in the ground state or
:close to it.

And all that is why I told rhw007 the following:

: Wrong.

See? You've just spent a lot of time bleating at me over my correct
answer.

:
: :Who is to
: :say that there is not SOME ETI civilization out there that has figured
: ut a way to duplicate that phenomenon with matter?
:
: Einstein.
:
:Someone has commented that the military themselves have produced a
:flying saucer.

'Someone' has commented about almost any crazy thing you care to
mention. That doesn't make it fact. After all, 'someone' commented
that large numbers of Senators were killed by anthrax when, in fact,
no Senator was even exposed to it.

:In fact ...

You're about to leave 'fact' far behind in another of your loony
screeds.

:... it did not fly very well and the military would
:have been far better employed getting a good understanding of chaos
:theory which underpins aerodynamic drag and vortex stability.
:
:Could this by any chance by part of the famous disinformation machine
:I have talked about. Is ET the cover for black flight?
:
: :Worm hole travel
: :is also proposed by Stephen Hawking and other prominent physicists.
:
: Wrong.
:
:Worm holes are a theoretical construct involving negative mass. As I
:explained warp + wormholes is very similar to inflation. Causality
:violations are the result of any FTL. It is not obvious to me that a
:wormhole would not set uf feedback lops and become inflationary
:

That's not why it doesn't work.

:
: :Just because we CURRENTLY cannot fathom even HOW such could be done
: :does not mean that it is impossible.
:
: But the fact that we understand why it's impossible is.
:
: :A little more than a hundred
: :years ago it would have been 'impossible' for humans to even fly in
: :Earth's air.
:
: Don't be silly.
:
:Wrong.
:

Do you not comprehend what "don't be silly" means?

:
:Sir George Cayley (or rather his coachman who resigned
:afterwards) flew across a Yorkshire valley in 1853. This was 50 years
:before the Wrights. The Wrights were of course the first to lift off
:with a engine. Nobody in the 19th century thought that aviation was
:impossible. FTL impossibility is based on causation violation.
:

Hence my "don't be silly".

:
:Could I make yet another dig on secrecy.
:

Could we stop you?


:
uring the Spanish American
:war of 1898 a secret weapon was proposed. An aeroplane. The people who
:worked on it, (in great secrecy) were inferior not only to the Wrights
success Nov 1903) but were also behind Sir George Cayley.
:

Wrong. They proposed (and used) balloons.

:
:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sci...740990f664ebaa
:
:This gives a summarty of the arguments. FTL involves violations of
:causality. This is clear if you understood anything about relativity.
:

You're spewing at the wrong person, nutcake. So far, you're arguing
ON MY SIDE, you silly git.

:
:Also whether travel was c/2 or c (I maintain c to be impossible) the
:arguments on the method of investigation + Radio Reloj stand.
:

Nothing wrong with faster than c travel. It's crossing from faster to
slower interaction or vice versa that are impossible.

Colour me unimpressed, Ian.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

On May 24, 10:21 am, Ian Parker wrote:
A website I recently looked up asked you to vote on what UFOs were.
53% said that they were extraterrestrial spacecraft. This posting is
meant to disabuse anyone of this notion.

My arguments do not rest on whether of not we are alone, with the
Drake equation or anything else of this type. No the argument against
ET is technological.

Then it's wrong before it even gets out of the starting gate. Craft
are already known to exist outside the solar system they originated
from: the Pioneer craft.

If even the mere piddling excuse of a joke of technology of a backward
civilization (i.e. the 20th century) can already produce that --
thereby sealing the issue permanently beyond dispute about whether
craft exist outside the solar system they originated from -- then so
much more for an advanced society (e.g. the Earth of the 21st
century).

These are instances of probles, which underscores a big point:

You totally left an important possibility out of consideration: they
can be probes. There are no space or time restrictions on the
propagation of probes from a civilized world. Technological arguments
relating to the transport of life are therefore utterly irrelevant.
Nobody ever said that ET craft involves life, even granting ET craft!

Moreover, if they're von Neumann probes, then numbers becomes somewhat
of a moot point, as well.

It seems a few are not up with recent theory:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra.../wormhole.html

Anyone here smarter than Stephen Hawking.

Again...here's another different point. How long has 'Dark Matter and
Dark Energy' been part of 'mainstream'???

Likely less than half a century. We can't even DIRECTLY observe
either but now 'mainstream' science is saying these things make up
most of the matter and energy of the Universe only because as our
observations got better the 'old mainstream' model of the 'Big Bang'
and Solar System n Galaxy formations did not compute with the 'old
mainstream' mathematical models. And we fail to remember that
'models' are exactly THAT...models...not FINAL and concrete proof of
anything.

Most major advances come not from doing something old better...but
doing it differently. We here in 2007 cannot say with certainty what
we, or some other alien civilization can come up with.

As far as ETI visiting Earth...why not visit here? Anyone seen
ancient heiroglyphs in the Abydos Pyramid in Egypt that show Flying
Saucers, helicoptors and submarines...some 4,000 years ago...were they
'extra imaginary n visionary'? There are also numerous other ancient
and Medieval artwork showing Flying Saucers and ancient 'astronauts or
visitors'...not to mention all the ancient folklore that mentions
these. So why NOT Earth...especially after we set off Nuclear
Weapons.

I noticed no one has mentioned the 1952 mass Washington DC sightings
over a week period where military radar contact with pilots sightings
and chasings along with several ground radar contact stations and
speeds in excess of thousands of MPH. It was real...go to a library
and look at the microfiche reports of that time frame.

Bob...
http://www.commonsensecentral.blogspot.com/

On May 25, 3:09 pm, rhw007 wrote:
It seems a few are not up with recent theory:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra.../wormhole.html

Anyone here smarter than Stephen Hawking.

Again...here's another different point. How long has 'Dark Matter and
Dark Energy' been part of 'mainstream'???

It is radioactive static gravity (with weight) or radio-static
gravity,
the fundamental building element of electrons. Dark matter is
captured by spiral galactic arms and converted toward rotation
while the arms direct dark matter toward the galactic core
for a chaotic cycling. Without dark matter things would move
slowly and galaxies would not rotate like paper in a wind. It is
energy as it keeps our galaxy rotating. It was calculated that
without it the visible mass in the galaxy would fly apart. Oh well,
very well! Ahem.

Likely less than half a century. We can't even DIRECTLY observe
either but now 'mainstream' science is saying these things make up
most of the matter and energy of the Universe only because as our
observations got better the 'old mainstream' model of the 'Big Bang'
and Solar System n Galaxy formations did not compute with the 'old
mainstream' mathematical models. And we fail to remember that
'models' are exactly THAT...models...not FINAL and concrete proof of
anything.

Most major advances come not from doing something old better...but
doing it differently. We here in 2007 cannot say with certainty what
we, or some other alien civilization can come up with.

As far as ETI visiting Earth...why not visit here? Anyone seen
ancient heiroglyphs in the Abydos Pyramid in Egypt that show Flying
Saucers, helicoptors and submarines...

Most neanderthals left the planet 30 thousand or so years ago.
Neanderthals had larger brains. They accomplished in a few centuries
what humanity did in 4000 years. Two species, one Bush sapien,
the other humble gentle neanderthal. They built space****s and left.
History knows they simply disappeared just when the migration of
homo sapiens took place into Europe, though some stayed and
mixed, but most left as it was an us or them situation with the
homos. They baded and made love with the touch of a grass or
flower. They made jewlery for one-another, but one day felt it was
time to leave to a better place, figured out the Universe and
surrendered
Earth to the newcomers as they knew there will be a time when they
can return and coexist. The two species separated 700 thousand years
ago. Before they left they copied the paintings of the homos in caves
leaving the idea that they were no more evolved. But that extra brain
matter tells a lot to today's mankind that knows the only correlation
to
intelligence is brain size.

some 4,000 years ago...were they
'extra imaginary n visionary'? There are also numerous other ancient
and Medieval artwork showing Flying Saucers and ancient 'astronauts or
visitors'...not to mention all the ancient folklore that mentions
these. So why NOT Earth...especially after we set off Nuclear
Weapons.

I noticed no one has mentioned the 1952 mass Washington DC sightings
over a week period where military radar contact with pilots sightings
and chasings along with several ground radar contact stations and
speeds in excess of thousands of MPH. It was real...go to a library
and look at the microfiche reports of that time frame.

Bob...http://www.commonsensecentral.blogspot.com/

It is neanderthals checking up on evolution.

rhw007 wrote:

:It seems a few are not up with recent theory:

Yes, it seems a few aren't. You're one of that few.

:
:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra.../wormhole.html
:
:Anyone here smarter than Stephen Hawking.
:

No. See Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture. It says they
won't work for travel.

You might also want to look into later work by Stephen Hsu, Roman
Buniy, and Chris Fewster.

They prove it won't work for travel.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

On May 25, 5:34 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
rhw007 wrote:

:It seems a few are not up with recent theory:

Yes, it seems a few aren't. You're one of that few.

:
:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra.../wormhole.html
:
:Anyone here smarter than Stephen Hawking.
:

No. See Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture. It says they
won't work for travel.

You might also want to look into later work by Stephen Hsu, Roman
Buniy, and Chris Fewster.

They prove it won't work for travel.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

They don't know. Read Hawking's book, he doesn't know.

" wrote:

:On May 25, 5:34 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: rhw007 wrote:
:
: :It seems a few are not up with recent theory:
:
: Yes, it seems a few aren't. You're one of that few.
:
: :
: :http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/stra.../wormhole.html
: :
: :Anyone here smarter than Stephen Hawking.
: :
:
: No. See Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture. It says they
: won't work for travel.
:
: You might also want to look into later work by Stephen Hsu, Roman
: Buniy, and Chris Fewster.
:
: They prove it won't work for travel.
:
:
:They don't know. Read Hawking's book, he doesn't know.
:

Ah, so you think YOU are smarter than Hawking (and three other top
physicists)?

If I didn't believe you are serious that would be too funny for
words...


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

From: Quadibloc
what could have happened is this:

The highly evolved and spiritually-attuned beings of the Pleiades
could have sent their nanoprobe to our Solar System.

And then it landed on a suitable asteroid, and extended its
capabilities to manipulate the physical world by using small-scale
machines to construct larger-scale ones.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the OP.

Then it went to Venus and constructed a hidden habitat there.

No, that'd be a stupid place to go. No good mix of resources, and with
Magellan radar-mapping it, they'd be discovered if they tried to build
a supply chain for bringing in lots of asteroid stuff. Better
to stay in the asteroids where we can't see them. (Avoid those very very
few asteroids we're sending probes to, of course, such as 433 Eros, etc.)

The Pleiadians who made the trip as uploads built artificial robot bodies
for themselves, and artificial wombs, and had children, and set up a
thriving little colony.

Almost correct. They set up thriving mini-colonies buried inside
hundreds of medium-size asteroids. If they learn we're going to send a new
probe there, they quickly cover up their doors so they look like natural
dustpuddles, and we never know the difference until someday we
start to mine that particular asteroid ourselves, at which point
they tamper with our robo-mining computers to make them halucinate that
nobody else is there. Actually all they need to is reprogram the
target-finding algorithm so it decides the fake dustpuddles that cover
up their doors don't have anything worth mining, so we never dig to
the bottom of those particular puddles, so they never have to mess
with the sensory systems to make the doors "invisible" to our robo-miners.

And now this colony regularly sends UFOs to the Earth, contacting
certain spiritually-attuned individuals, and beaming quartz crystal
cosmic love energy blasts at our planet, and doing all the usual UFO
cult things.

Well most of that anyway. Not the BS about love energy blasts, however.

Did you see the Playboy cartoon (tens of years ago), where there's a flying
saucer, and two gorgeous aliens topless with beautiful medium-large
breasts using hand-held instruments to take measurements, and these
two earthling farmers are hiding behind bushes watching the gorgeous
sexy aliens, and one of them says to the other: "This is *nothing*.
You should see their *women*!"?

You don't need love energy blasts if the aliens can manufacture
gorgeous sexy bodies to win the devotion of half the population of Earth!
(And if they are visibly muscular and competantly athletic,
and can sell some valuable asteroid-derived
product to earn lots of money, that should win over the
other half of Earth's population.)

rag mama rag

I have been reading a book by Ian Mackersey entitled "The Wright
Brothers". I think there are parallels today to the history of 1898 -
1905 (approx) but they are not with FTL. They parallel must more
closely other secret projects like Blackstar, Aurora and even some
speech research.

In the Spanish American war (1898) it was decided to develop an
aeroplane. A fairly large sum $50,000 was to be spent on the project.
This may appear chickenfeed today but was quite a large sum in those
days. It was certainly far more than the Wrights ever spent. The
Wright aircraft had a 12hp motor. The "Great Aerodrome" which was what
the aircraft was called had a 53hp motor. Despite the resources
allocated very little reasearch was done. The Wright brothers built a
wind tunnel and got the optimal lift/drag. They experimented with
different angles of attack and different chord ratios. The Great
Aeodrome team did none of this. The machine had a poor lift/drag and
moreover the center of gravity was not over the center of lift. You
cannot fly unless your CL and CG coincide. The elevator of course
pushes the CL slightly forwards of backwards allowing you to change
your angle of attack. The Wright experiments produces a 3 axis control
system which they eventually patented. The control system for the
Great Aerodrome was inferior to that of Sir George Cayley.

In fact the Wrights and the Great Aerodrome came to be tested at round
about the same time. The Great Aerodrome promptly nose dived into the
Potomac river on the two occaisions when flight was attempted. The
aruments about flight being impossible were in fact ad hominem
arguments not scientific ones. Here was a large well funded team which
has failed. Was aviation possible? Had the Wrights really done it? Ad
hominem arguments are always dangerous. The fact of the matter was
that despite its pedigree the team was incompetant. They had not
carried out some very basic technical steps. Then, as now, people
covered their tracks using the disinformation machine. Lessons for us
now -

1) Be wary of ad hominem arguments. Always check everything with
indepependent arguments. Look at George Cayley for example.

2) Look out for the disinformation machine.

3) Things developed by a closed secret team rarely work. Peer group
review is the only way to make progress.

As I said, you cannot go back and kill your grandfather. This is an
independent argument - it is NOT ad hominem. FTL allows you to kill
your grandfather. Wormholes have in fact been prdicted mathematically
on the basis of negative mass. This raises the question does negative
mass exist. There have been a number of attempts to resolve the
paradoxes. Amoung them defining the arrow of time in terms of local
causation. I would question the existence of negative mass. I am
inclined to believe that Inflation might well be the way in whichj the
paradox is evolved. Basically then no negative mass - except at the
start of the Universe. Mathematically a negative mass and causality
paradoxes inevitably lead to Inflation. This is what I was hinting at
before.


- Ian Parker