Why are the 'Fixed Stars' so FIXED?

"Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message ...
On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 22:43:07 GMT, (Paul Schlyter) wrote:

In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

Sure, they're a long way from us...

That's the answer to your question; the so-called "fixed" stars appear
relatively fixed because of their vast distances to us. While light
takes one second to travel to the Moon, 8 minutes to the Sun, one and
a half hour to Saturn and some 5 hours to Neptune, light takes more
than 4 years to travel to the *nearest* star, and hundreds of years or
more to travel to the average star visible to the naked eye in our
skies. That's a big difference!

but there are a great many out there in our galaxy and every object
must be in orbit around a mass centre of some kind.

Indeed true: all the stars we see with the naked eye in our skies
belong to our galaxy, and they are all orbiting the center of our
galaxy with an orbital speed of some 200 to 300 km/s. That's some six
to ten times faster than the orbital speed of the Earth around the
Sun, but the stars are vastly more distant than just some six to ten
times the distance to the Sun. Therefore they appear to move much much
slower.

Most do not appear to have moved much in thousands of years.
Should we not expect to see more movement than we do?

Why should we expect what does not happen?

Mankind saw for many thousands of years that the stars didn't appear
to move much relative to one another, with the exception of 7 bodies
which were called planets (= "wandering stars"): Sun, Moon, Mercury,
Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. The weekdays were named after the
planets and that's why we have a 7-day week. Now, since mankind had
known for a very long time that this was the case, why should we
"expect" anything different? The reason for this (i.e. the vast
distances to the stars) was found out much later though - ancient man
believed the "fixed" stars were just a little farther away than
Saturn.


...my question may be naive and the answer trivial... so please
enlighten me.

Hopefully done....

Yes, I should have worded my question differently.

I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.

Sirius is a binary with a 50 year period. That's less than our own outer planets.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001006.html


Stick around for 25 years, you'll have half an orbit. It won't be edge on, though.
http://www.lazaris.com/Images/SiriusOrbitL1.jpg





I know some such binaries are recorded, but generally, those in resolvable
orbits will be moving very slowly around their orbits.

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.


The orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could conceivably be less than
one hundred years only in the mind of a psychomaniac.

"Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message ...
On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:02:03 GMT, "Dumbledore_"
wrote:


"Paul Schlyter" wrote in message ...
In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

Sure, they're a long way from us...

That's the answer to your question; the so-called "fixed" stars appear
relatively fixed because of their vast distances to us. While light
takes one second to travel to the Moon, 8 minutes to the Sun, one and
a half hour to Saturn and some 5 hours to Neptune, light takes more
than 4 years to travel to the *nearest* star, and hundreds of years or
more to travel to the average star visible to the naked eye in our
skies. That's a big difference!

but there are a great many out there in our galaxy and every object
must be in orbit around a mass centre of some kind.

Indeed true: all the stars we see with the naked eye in our skies
belong to our galaxy, and they are all orbiting the center of our
galaxy with an orbital speed of some 200 to 300 km/s. That's some six
to ten times faster than the orbital speed of the Earth around the
Sun, but the stars are vastly more distant than just some six to ten
times the distance to the Sun. Therefore they appear to move much much
slower.

Most do not appear to have moved much in thousands of years.
Should we not expect to see more movement than we do?

Why should we expect what does not happen?

Mankind saw for many thousands of years that the stars didn't appear
to move much relative to one another, with the exception of 7 bodies
which were called planets (= "wandering stars"): Sun, Moon, Mercury,
Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. The weekdays were named after the
planets and that's why we have a 7-day week. Now, since mankind had
known for a very long time that this was the case, why should we
"expect" anything different? The reason for this (i.e. the vast
distances to the stars) was found out much later though - ancient man
believed the "fixed" stars were just a little farther away than
Saturn.


...my question may be naive and the answer trivial... so please
enlighten me.

Hopefully done....


Henri thinks stars are 0.3 LY from us to fit his theory.

Listen you stupid old dope, stop misrepresenting me or you will end up in
court.

It's your data I quoted, psycho. See me in court all you want to.

I said that to generate the magnitude changes associated with published
brightness curves, the distance parameter value that has to be fed in is always
less than the hipparcos one. For short period binaries - or whatever they are -
the required distances can be less than 1 LY.

You raving mad, Proxima Centauri is further than that by parallax.
Take me to court, you'll get yourself committed to an asylum.



AT NO TIME HAVE I CLAIMED THAT THESE STARS ARE ONLY 0.3 LYS FROM THE ****ING
EARTH.

Yes you did, you published it. I've got the proof, crackpot.
Take me to court, get yourself committed. Is this your code, Wilson?

Dim c, G, LU, D, pi, v, K1, K2, redblue As Double
Dim n, m As Integer
Dim core As Double
Dim X, Y, Z, R1, R2, Vsquared, vescape As Double
Dim Density1, Density2, decel, accel, deltae As Double
Dim shiftratio As Double

Private Sub Command1_Click()
Spaceslice.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Command2_Click()
End
End Sub


Private Sub Command3_Click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Top = 10
Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Show
Form2.Label3.Visible = True
Form2.Label4.Visible = True
Form2.Label5.Visible = True
End Sub


Private Sub Command4_Click()
secondCalc.Hide
FirstCalc.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Form_Load()
Combo1.AddItem 0.01
Combo1.AddItem 0.03
Combo1.AddItem 0.05
Combo1.AddItem 0.1
Combo1.AddItem 0.2
Combo1.AddItem 0.4 'R1 Million Lightyears
Combo1.AddItem 1


Combo2.AddItem 0.01
Combo2.AddItem 0.03
Combo2.AddItem 0.05
Combo2.AddItem 0.1
Combo2.AddItem 0.2
Combo2.AddItem 0.4 'R2 Million Lightyears
Combo2.AddItem 1


Combo3.AddItem 0
Combo3.AddItem 0.01
Combo3.AddItem 0.03
Combo3.AddItem 0.05
Combo3.AddItem 0.1
Combo3.AddItem 0.2
Combo3.AddItem 0.4 'Y Million Lightyears
Combo3.AddItem 1


Combo4.AddItem 0
Combo4.AddItem 0.01
Combo4.AddItem 0.03
Combo4.AddItem 0.05
Combo4.AddItem 0.1
Combo4.AddItem 0.2
Combo4.AddItem 0.4 'Z Million Lightyears
Combo4.AddItem 1


Combo5.AddItem 1
Combo5.AddItem 3
Combo5.AddItem 10 'X distance between source and observer
Combo5.AddItem 50
Combo5.AddItem 200
Combo5.AddItem 1000


Combo6.AddItem -12
Combo6.AddItem -13
Combo6.AddItem -14
Combo6.AddItem -15
Combo6.AddItem -16
Combo6.AddItem -17
Combo6.AddItem -18
Combo6.AddItem -19 ' Density D1
Combo6.AddItem -20


Combo7.AddItem 1 ' Density D2/D1
Combo7.AddItem 0.97
Combo7.AddItem 0.9
Combo7.AddItem 0.8
Combo7.AddItem 0.6
Combo7.AddItem 0.3
Combo7.AddItem 0


Combo8.AddItem 1 ' Blue thickness/diameter
Combo8.AddItem 0.4
Combo8.AddItem 0.2
Combo8.AddItem 0.1
Combo8.AddItem 0.04
Combo8.AddItem 0.02
Combo8.AddItem 0.01


Combo9.AddItem 1 ' red thickness/diameter
Combo9.AddItem 0.4
Combo9.AddItem 0.2
Combo9.AddItem 0.1
Combo9.AddItem 0.04
Combo9.AddItem 0.02
Combo9.AddItem 0.01


G = 6.67 * 10 ^ -11
LU = 9.46021 * 10 ^ 21 'has been x 10^6 to convert to millions of LY
c = 2.99776 * 10 ^ 8


pi = 3.14159


End Sub


Private Sub Form_click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Label6.Visible = False
If Combo1.Text = Empty Or Combo2.Text = Empty Or Combo3.Text = Empty Or
Combo4.Text = Empty Or Combo5.Text = Empty Or Combo6.Text = Empty Or
Combo7.Text = Empty Or Combo8.Text = Empty Then GoTo emty
Form2.Top = 5120
Form2.Show


Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Label3.Visible = False
Form2.Label4.Visible = False
Form2.Label5.Visible = False
Form2.Label6.Visible = False


R1 = Combo1.Text * LU
R2 = Combo2.Text * LU
Y = Combo3.Text * LU
Z = Combo4.Text * LU
X = Combo5.Text * LU


If X = 0 Then GoTo Xnort
If R1 = 0 Or R2 = 0 Then
Form2.Print "Reset values. Neither R1 nor R2 should be zero."
GoTo skip
End If
If Y R1 Then GoTo changeyz
If Z R2 And Combo7.Text 0 Then GoTo changeyz


core = (10 ^ Combo6.Text)
Density1 = core * Combo8.Text
Density2 = core * Combo7.Text * Combo9.Text


K1 = 4.18879 * G * Density1
K2 = 4.18879 * G * Density2


vescape = ((K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) - ((Y ^ 2) * (1 - (Y / 2 / R1))))) ^ 0.5) / c
decel = K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R1 / (X + Y) / 2)) - ((Y ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Y
/ 2 / R1)))) 'left to right
accel = K2 * ((R2 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R2 / (X + Z) / 2)) - ((Z ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Z
/ R2 / 2)))) 'right to left


deltae = decel - accel 'total energy lost


Vsquared = (c ^ 2) - (2 * deltae)
If Vsquared 0 Then GoTo escape
v = (Vsquared ^ 0.5) / c 'final velocity/c


shiftratio = 1 - v 'fractional velocity change


' User-defined formats.
shiftratio = Format(shiftratio, "00.#######")
core = Format(core, "#E-##")
vescape = Format(vescape, "0.#######")
v = Format(v, "0.#######")
decel = Format(decel, "#.####E+##")
accel = Format(accel, "#.####E+##")
deltae = Format(deltae, "00.#####000E+00")


Form2.Print "Distance between source and observer = "; Combo5.Text; " million
lightyears":
Form2.Print "Core density of LH volume: D1 =10^"; Combo6.Text; " kgm/m^3":
Form2.Print "Core density gradient: D2/D1 = "; Combo7.Text:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity ="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print:


Form2.Print "Energy lost escaping LH volume ="; decel; " mks units":
Form2.Print "Energy gained approaching RH volume ="; accel:
Form2.Print "Difference ="; deltae:
Form2.Print


If Vsquared = 0 Then Form2.Print "Effective one-way velocity of light reaching
observer: v ="; v; "c":
Form2.Print "Fractional redshift: (c-v)/c = "; shiftratio


GoTo skip
escape:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print "light cannot escape LH body. 'Black Hole' exists at centre."
GoTo skip


changeyz:
If Y R1 Or Z R2 Then Form2.Label6.Visible = True Else Form2.Label6.Visible
= False
GoTo skip
Xnort:
Form2.Print "X must not be zero":
GoTo skip
emty:
Form2.Show
Form2.Cls
Form2.Print "Reset values"
skip:
End Sub


I'm sure it means nothing to you.



SO SHOVE IT UP YOUR GLENLIVET BOTTLE.

Drunken old wabo, you are senile.

Those are binary (double) stars and the movement in their orbits have
been well known for at least 150 years.

Saul Levy


On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:26:06 GMT, HW@....(Henri Wilson) wrote:

In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.
I know some such binaries are recorded, but generally, those in resolvable
orbits will be moving very slowly around their orbits.

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.

In article ,
Tom Roberts wrote:

Paul Schlyter wrote:
Indeed true: all the stars we see with the naked eye in our skies
belong to our galaxy, and they are all orbiting the center of our
galaxy with an orbital speed of some 200 to 300 km/s. [...]

And equally importantly, the galaxy is rotating as an approximately
rigid assembly of stars. This makes them appear to move even less.

Tom Roberts

You are here referring to Population-I stars, which occupy the disk of
our galaxy. No, it doesn't rotate as a rigid body, instead its
orbital speed is pretty much constant over a farly large part of the
disk. Nevertheless, this does make stars in the vicinity of one
another orbit the galaxy with pretty mch the same speed - like most
stars we see in our sky with the naked eye.

However, there are exceptions. The Population II stars move with
great speed, and large inclination, relative to the disk of our
galaxy. The brightest Population II star in our sky is Arcturus,
and it's really not a coincidence that Arcturus was the very first
star which had its proper motion detected: it had moved a degree
or two in our sky since the age of the ancient Greeks. Arcturus
indeed has the largest motion of all bright stars in the nothern
sky - Alfa Centauri moves faster in our sky though, but that's due
to its proximity to us rather than to a high real speed.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.
I know some such binaries are recorded,

....not only "some" - it's actually a quite large number of binaries
which have had their orbital motion measured and their orbits
determined. Thousands of binaries have had their orbits
determined..... btw the first person who measured orbital motions of
binary stars was William Herschel, several centuries ago.

but generally, those in resolvable orbits will be moving very slowly around
their orbits.

It seems you have a quite small telescope. Of course whether a binary is
resolvable depends a lot on your telescope: larger scopes will be able
to resolve many more binary stars.

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.

If you want to observe orbital motions in binary stars most easily, you should
pay attention to nearby binary stars.

Alfa Centauri, our most nearby star system at some 4.2 LY distance,
will show considerable orbital motion during a human lifetime (its
orbital period is some 80 years). But it's too far south for most
northern hemisphere observers to see.

I have myself seen orbital motion in two binaries, with causal visual
observation:

70 Ophiuchi: near its perihelion in the 1980's I observed and drew
this binary once a year. After only some 4-5 years it had changed its
PA by some 90 degrees. Now it's away from perihelion and therefore
moving more slowly, but keep an eye on this pair anyway and you'll see
orbital motion. Although now it may take a decade or two. IF you
attach a micrometer to your eyepiece, so you can detect smaller
changes in PA or separation, you'll detect the motion sooner of
course.

Gamma Virginis: In my youth in the 1960's, this binary was easily
resolvable with a separation of some 6 arc seconds. Today it's near
perihelion, with a separation of a fraction of an arc seconds and
most telescopes will be unable to resolve it. Within several years
the pair will widen again, making Gamma Virginis resolvable also
with smaller telescopes.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

I would say 200+ years. The first astronomer to detect motion in
binary stars was the good ol' William Herschel....


In article ,
Saul Levy wrote:
Those are binary (double) stars and the movement in their orbits have
been well known for at least 150 years.

Saul Levy


On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:26:06 GMT, HW@....(Henri Wilson) wrote:

In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.
I know some such binaries are recorded, but generally, those in resolvable
orbits will be moving very slowly around their orbits.

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:42:47 GMT, "Dumbledore_"
wrote:


"Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message ...
On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:02:03 GMT, "Dumbledore_"

Henri thinks stars are 0.3 LY from us to fit his theory.

Listen you stupid old dope, stop misrepresenting me or you will end up in
court.

It's your data I quoted, psycho. See me in court all you want to.

I will if you don't shutup!
rate the magnitude changes associated with published
brightness curves, the distance parameter value that has to be fed in is always
less than the hipparcos one. For short period binaries - or whatever they are -
the required distances can be less than 1 LY.

You raving mad, Proxima Centauri is further than that by parallax.
Take me to court, you'll get yourself committed to an asylum.

****ing old drunk...



AT NO TIME HAVE I CLAIMED THAT THESE STARS ARE ONLY 0.3 LYS FROM THE ****ING
EARTH.

Yes you did, you published it. I've got the proof, crackpot.
Take me to court, get yourself committed. Is this your code, Wilson?



Dim c, G, LU, D, pi, v, K1, K2, redblue As Double
Dim n, m As Integer
Dim core As Double
Dim X, Y, Z, R1, R2, Vsquared, vescape As Double
Dim Density1, Density2, decel, accel, deltae As Double
Dim shiftratio As Double

Private Sub Command1_Click()
Spaceslice.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Command2_Click()
End
End Sub


Private Sub Command3_Click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Top = 10
Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Show
Form2.Label3.Visible = True
Form2.Label4.Visible = True
Form2.Label5.Visible = True
End Sub


Private Sub Command4_Click()
secondCalc.Hide
FirstCalc.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Form_Load()
Combo1.AddItem 0.01
Combo1.AddItem 0.03
Combo1.AddItem 0.05
Combo1.AddItem 0.1
Combo1.AddItem 0.2
Combo1.AddItem 0.4 'R1 Million Lightyears
Combo1.AddItem 1


Combo2.AddItem 0.01
Combo2.AddItem 0.03
Combo2.AddItem 0.05
Combo2.AddItem 0.1
Combo2.AddItem 0.2
Combo2.AddItem 0.4 'R2 Million Lightyears
Combo2.AddItem 1


Combo3.AddItem 0
Combo3.AddItem 0.01
Combo3.AddItem 0.03
Combo3.AddItem 0.05
Combo3.AddItem 0.1
Combo3.AddItem 0.2
Combo3.AddItem 0.4 'Y Million Lightyears
Combo3.AddItem 1


Combo4.AddItem 0
Combo4.AddItem 0.01
Combo4.AddItem 0.03
Combo4.AddItem 0.05
Combo4.AddItem 0.1
Combo4.AddItem 0.2
Combo4.AddItem 0.4 'Z Million Lightyears
Combo4.AddItem 1


Combo5.AddItem 1
Combo5.AddItem 3
Combo5.AddItem 10 'X distance between source and observer
Combo5.AddItem 50
Combo5.AddItem 200
Combo5.AddItem 1000


Combo6.AddItem -12
Combo6.AddItem -13
Combo6.AddItem -14
Combo6.AddItem -15
Combo6.AddItem -16
Combo6.AddItem -17
Combo6.AddItem -18
Combo6.AddItem -19 ' Density D1
Combo6.AddItem -20


Combo7.AddItem 1 ' Density D2/D1
Combo7.AddItem 0.97
Combo7.AddItem 0.9
Combo7.AddItem 0.8
Combo7.AddItem 0.6
Combo7.AddItem 0.3
Combo7.AddItem 0


Combo8.AddItem 1 ' Blue thickness/diameter
Combo8.AddItem 0.4
Combo8.AddItem 0.2
Combo8.AddItem 0.1
Combo8.AddItem 0.04
Combo8.AddItem 0.02
Combo8.AddItem 0.01


Combo9.AddItem 1 ' red thickness/diameter
Combo9.AddItem 0.4
Combo9.AddItem 0.2
Combo9.AddItem 0.1
Combo9.AddItem 0.04
Combo9.AddItem 0.02
Combo9.AddItem 0.01


G = 6.67 * 10 ^ -11
LU = 9.46021 * 10 ^ 21 'has been x 10^6 to convert to millions of LY
c = 2.99776 * 10 ^ 8


pi = 3.14159


End Sub


Private Sub Form_click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Label6.Visible = False
If Combo1.Text = Empty Or Combo2.Text = Empty Or Combo3.Text = Empty Or
Combo4.Text = Empty Or Combo5.Text = Empty Or Combo6.Text = Empty Or
Combo7.Text = Empty Or Combo8.Text = Empty Then GoTo emty
Form2.Top = 5120
Form2.Show


Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Label3.Visible = False
Form2.Label4.Visible = False
Form2.Label5.Visible = False
Form2.Label6.Visible = False


R1 = Combo1.Text * LU
R2 = Combo2.Text * LU
Y = Combo3.Text * LU
Z = Combo4.Text * LU
X = Combo5.Text * LU


If X = 0 Then GoTo Xnort
If R1 = 0 Or R2 = 0 Then
Form2.Print "Reset values. Neither R1 nor R2 should be zero."
GoTo skip
End If
If Y R1 Then GoTo changeyz
If Z R2 And Combo7.Text 0 Then GoTo changeyz


core = (10 ^ Combo6.Text)
Density1 = core * Combo8.Text
Density2 = core * Combo7.Text * Combo9.Text


K1 = 4.18879 * G * Density1
K2 = 4.18879 * G * Density2


vescape = ((K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) - ((Y ^ 2) * (1 - (Y / 2 / R1))))) ^ 0.5) / c
decel = K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R1 / (X + Y) / 2)) - ((Y ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Y
/ 2 / R1)))) 'left to right
accel = K2 * ((R2 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R2 / (X + Z) / 2)) - ((Z ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Z
/ R2 / 2)))) 'right to left


deltae = decel - accel 'total energy lost


Vsquared = (c ^ 2) - (2 * deltae)
If Vsquared 0 Then GoTo escape
v = (Vsquared ^ 0.5) / c 'final velocity/c


shiftratio = 1 - v 'fractional velocity change


' User-defined formats.
shiftratio = Format(shiftratio, "00.#######")
core = Format(core, "#E-##")
vescape = Format(vescape, "0.#######")
v = Format(v, "0.#######")
decel = Format(decel, "#.####E+##")
accel = Format(accel, "#.####E+##")
deltae = Format(deltae, "00.#####000E+00")


Form2.Print "Distance between source and observer = "; Combo5.Text; " million
lightyears":
Form2.Print "Core density of LH volume: D1 =10^"; Combo6.Text; " kgm/m^3":
Form2.Print "Core density gradient: D2/D1 = "; Combo7.Text:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity ="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print:


Form2.Print "Energy lost escaping LH volume ="; decel; " mks units":
Form2.Print "Energy gained approaching RH volume ="; accel:
Form2.Print "Difference ="; deltae:
Form2.Print


If Vsquared = 0 Then Form2.Print "Effective one-way velocity of light reaching
observer: v ="; v; "c":
Form2.Print "Fractional redshift: (c-v)/c = "; shiftratio


GoTo skip
escape:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print "light cannot escape LH body. 'Black Hole' exists at centre."
GoTo skip


changeyz:
If Y R1 Or Z R2 Then Form2.Label6.Visible = True Else Form2.Label6.Visible
= False
GoTo skip
Xnort:
Form2.Print "X must not be zero":
GoTo skip
emty:
Form2.Show
Form2.Cls
Form2.Print "Reset values"
skip:
End Sub


I'm sure it means nothing to you.



SO SHOVE IT UP YOUR GLENLIVET BOTTLE.

Drunken old wabo, you are senile.

****ing old pommie dri/unj kjdjgk

I hope you are ****ing freexing...

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 08:12:11 GMT, (Paul Schlyter) wrote:

In article ,
Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:

I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.
I know some such binaries are recorded,

...not only "some" - it's actually a quite large number of binaries
which have had their orbital motion measured and their orbits
determined. Thousands of binaries have had their orbits
determined..... btw the first person who measured orbital motions of
binary stars was William Herschel, several centuries ago.

Paul, I thank you for your very good comments but since I don't post to
sci.astro very often, I should warn you that am a proponent of the ballistic
theory of light.
I say that light in space moves at c wrt its source star and that most
astronomers are under a delusion in believing that is it moves at c wrt Earth.

but generally, those in resolvable orbits will be moving very slowly around
their orbits.

It seems you have a quite small telescope. Of course whether a binary is
resolvable depends a lot on your telescope: larger scopes will be able
to resolve many more binary stars.

I don't have a telescope at present...just read what others have to say..

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.

If you want to observe orbital motions in binary stars most easily, you should
pay attention to nearby binary stars.

Alfa Centauri, our most nearby star system at some 4.2 LY distance,
will show considerable orbital motion during a human lifetime (its
orbital period is some 80 years). But it's too far south for most
northern hemisphere observers to see.

I'm OZ. We have a great view of the Milky Way. On clear nights I can see the
whole spiral formation.

I have myself seen orbital motion in two binaries, with causal visual
observation:

70 Ophiuchi: near its perihelion in the 1980's I observed and drew
this binary once a year. After only some 4-5 years it had changed its
PA by some 90 degrees. Now it's away from perihelion and therefore
moving more slowly, but keep an eye on this pair anyway and you'll see
orbital motion. Although now it may take a decade or two. IF you
attach a micrometer to your eyepiece, so you can detect smaller
changes in PA or separation, you'll detect the motion sooner of
course.

Were you able to resolve the orbit parameters....eccentricity, yaw?

Gamma Virginis: In my youth in the 1960's, this binary was easily
resolvable with a separation of some 6 arc seconds. Today it's near
perihelion, with a separation of a fraction of an arc seconds and
most telescopes will be unable to resolve it. Within several years
the pair will widen again, making Gamma Virginis resolvable also
with smaller telescopes.

Thanks for that.

I should advise you that for some time, I have been studying variable star
light curves with the aim of proving Einstein wrong...which of course he was.

Light from distant stars travels at c wrt those stars and at c+v wrt planet
Earth.

Binary stars in orbit, emit light at sinusoidially varying speed wrt Earth.
Their 'fast' light catches the slower light, causing 'bunching', which appears
to us as a variation in brightness.

On Feb 5, 9:12 pm, (Paul Schlyter) wrote:
In article ,

Henri Wilson HW@....... wrote:
I was really wondering about well separated binary pairs...why they weren't
seen to be changing places more frequently...but again 'distance' probably
provides the answer.
I know some such binaries are recorded,

...not only "some" - it's actually a quite large number of binaries
which have had their orbital motion measured and their orbits
determined. Thousands of binaries have had their orbits
determined..... btw the first person who measured orbital motions of
binary stars was William Herschel, several centuries ago.

but generally, those in resolvable orbits will be moving very slowly around
their orbits.

It seems you have a quite small telescope. Of course whether a binary is
resolvable depends a lot on your telescope: larger scopes will be able
to resolve many more binary stars.

However, for very heavy stars, the orbit period at say 0.01 LY radius could
conceivably be less than one hundred years....and movement should be
observable.

If you want to observe orbital motions in binary stars most easily, you should
pay attention to nearby binary stars.

Alfa Centauri, our most nearby star system at some 4.2 LY distance,
will show considerable orbital motion during a human lifetime (its
orbital period is some 80 years). But it's too far south for most
northern hemisphere observers to see.

I have myself seen orbital motion in two binaries, with causal visual
observation:

70 Ophiuchi: near its perihelion in the 1980's I observed and drew
this binary once a year. After only some 4-5 years it had changed its
PA by some 90 degrees. Now it's away from perihelion and therefore
moving more slowly, but keep an eye on this pair anyway and you'll see
orbital motion. Although now it may take a decade or two. IF you
attach a micrometer to your eyepiece, so you can detect smaller
changes in PA or separation, you'll detect the motion sooner of
course.

Gamma Virginis: In my youth in the 1960's, this binary was easily
resolvable with a separation of some 6 arc seconds. Today it's near
perihelion, with a separation of a fraction of an arc seconds and
most telescopes will be unable to resolve it. Within several years
the pair will widen again, making Gamma Virginis resolvable also
with smaller telescopes.

I guess another good one to try is Sirius and its' "Pup". The orbit is
around fifty years. The main problem with this one is the difference
in brightness of more than nine magnitudes.

Bill


--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/

"Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message ...
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 05:42:47 GMT, "Dumbledore_"
wrote:


"Henri Wilson" HW@.... wrote in message ...
On Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:02:03 GMT, "Dumbledore_"

Henri thinks stars are 0.3 LY from us to fit his theory.

Listen you stupid old dope, stop misrepresenting me or you will end up in
court.

It's your data I quoted, psycho. See me in court all you want to.

I will if you don't shutup!

It's your ****head theory of uni****ation we've had to listen to.
Do it, ARSEHOLE.

rate the magnitude changes associated with published
brightness curves, the distance parameter value that has to be fed in is always
less than the hipparcos one. For short period binaries - or whatever they are -
the required distances can be less than 1 LY.

You raving mad, Proxima Centauri is further than that by parallax.
Take me to court, you'll get yourself committed to an asylum.

****ing old drunk...


I see Paul is telling you everything I've tried to and you say 'thank you' to him.
Take me to court, you'll get yourself committed to an asylum.






AT NO TIME HAVE I CLAIMED THAT THESE STARS ARE ONLY 0.3 LYS FROM THE ****ING
EARTH.

Yes you did, you published it. I've got the proof, crackpot.
Take me to court, get yourself committed. Is this your code, Wilson?



Dim c, G, LU, D, pi, v, K1, K2, redblue As Double
Dim n, m As Integer
Dim core As Double
Dim X, Y, Z, R1, R2, Vsquared, vescape As Double
Dim Density1, Density2, decel, accel, deltae As Double
Dim shiftratio As Double

Private Sub Command1_Click()
Spaceslice.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Command2_Click()
End
End Sub


Private Sub Command3_Click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Top = 10
Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Show
Form2.Label3.Visible = True
Form2.Label4.Visible = True
Form2.Label5.Visible = True
End Sub


Private Sub Command4_Click()
secondCalc.Hide
FirstCalc.Show
End Sub


Private Sub Form_Load()
Combo1.AddItem 0.01
Combo1.AddItem 0.03
Combo1.AddItem 0.05
Combo1.AddItem 0.1
Combo1.AddItem 0.2
Combo1.AddItem 0.4 'R1 Million Lightyears
Combo1.AddItem 1


Combo2.AddItem 0.01
Combo2.AddItem 0.03
Combo2.AddItem 0.05
Combo2.AddItem 0.1
Combo2.AddItem 0.2
Combo2.AddItem 0.4 'R2 Million Lightyears
Combo2.AddItem 1


Combo3.AddItem 0
Combo3.AddItem 0.01
Combo3.AddItem 0.03
Combo3.AddItem 0.05
Combo3.AddItem 0.1
Combo3.AddItem 0.2
Combo3.AddItem 0.4 'Y Million Lightyears
Combo3.AddItem 1


Combo4.AddItem 0
Combo4.AddItem 0.01
Combo4.AddItem 0.03
Combo4.AddItem 0.05
Combo4.AddItem 0.1
Combo4.AddItem 0.2
Combo4.AddItem 0.4 'Z Million Lightyears
Combo4.AddItem 1


Combo5.AddItem 1
Combo5.AddItem 3
Combo5.AddItem 10 'X distance between source and observer
Combo5.AddItem 50
Combo5.AddItem 200
Combo5.AddItem 1000


Combo6.AddItem -12
Combo6.AddItem -13
Combo6.AddItem -14
Combo6.AddItem -15
Combo6.AddItem -16
Combo6.AddItem -17
Combo6.AddItem -18
Combo6.AddItem -19 ' Density D1
Combo6.AddItem -20


Combo7.AddItem 1 ' Density D2/D1
Combo7.AddItem 0.97
Combo7.AddItem 0.9
Combo7.AddItem 0.8
Combo7.AddItem 0.6
Combo7.AddItem 0.3
Combo7.AddItem 0


Combo8.AddItem 1 ' Blue thickness/diameter
Combo8.AddItem 0.4
Combo8.AddItem 0.2
Combo8.AddItem 0.1
Combo8.AddItem 0.04
Combo8.AddItem 0.02
Combo8.AddItem 0.01


Combo9.AddItem 1 ' red thickness/diameter
Combo9.AddItem 0.4
Combo9.AddItem 0.2
Combo9.AddItem 0.1
Combo9.AddItem 0.04
Combo9.AddItem 0.02
Combo9.AddItem 0.01


G = 6.67 * 10 ^ -11
LU = 9.46021 * 10 ^ 21 'has been x 10^6 to convert to millions of LY
c = 2.99776 * 10 ^ 8


pi = 3.14159


End Sub


Private Sub Form_click()
Form2.Cls
Form2.Label6.Visible = False
If Combo1.Text = Empty Or Combo2.Text = Empty Or Combo3.Text = Empty Or
Combo4.Text = Empty Or Combo5.Text = Empty Or Combo6.Text = Empty Or
Combo7.Text = Empty Or Combo8.Text = Empty Then GoTo emty
Form2.Top = 5120
Form2.Show


Form2.Label1.Visible = False
Form2.Label2.Visible = False
Form2.Label3.Visible = False
Form2.Label4.Visible = False
Form2.Label5.Visible = False
Form2.Label6.Visible = False


R1 = Combo1.Text * LU
R2 = Combo2.Text * LU
Y = Combo3.Text * LU
Z = Combo4.Text * LU
X = Combo5.Text * LU


If X = 0 Then GoTo Xnort
If R1 = 0 Or R2 = 0 Then
Form2.Print "Reset values. Neither R1 nor R2 should be zero."
GoTo skip
End If
If Y R1 Then GoTo changeyz
If Z R2 And Combo7.Text 0 Then GoTo changeyz


core = (10 ^ Combo6.Text)
Density1 = core * Combo8.Text
Density2 = core * Combo7.Text * Combo9.Text


K1 = 4.18879 * G * Density1
K2 = 4.18879 * G * Density2


vescape = ((K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) - ((Y ^ 2) * (1 - (Y / 2 / R1))))) ^ 0.5) / c
decel = K1 * ((R1 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R1 / (X + Y) / 2)) - ((Y ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Y
/ 2 / R1)))) 'left to right
accel = K2 * ((R2 ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (R2 / (X + Z) / 2)) - ((Z ^ 2) / 2 * (1 - (Z
/ R2 / 2)))) 'right to left


deltae = decel - accel 'total energy lost


Vsquared = (c ^ 2) - (2 * deltae)
If Vsquared 0 Then GoTo escape
v = (Vsquared ^ 0.5) / c 'final velocity/c


shiftratio = 1 - v 'fractional velocity change


' User-defined formats.
shiftratio = Format(shiftratio, "00.#######")
core = Format(core, "#E-##")
vescape = Format(vescape, "0.#######")
v = Format(v, "0.#######")
decel = Format(decel, "#.####E+##")
accel = Format(accel, "#.####E+##")
deltae = Format(deltae, "00.#####000E+00")


Form2.Print "Distance between source and observer = "; Combo5.Text; " million
lightyears":
Form2.Print "Core density of LH volume: D1 =10^"; Combo6.Text; " kgm/m^3":
Form2.Print "Core density gradient: D2/D1 = "; Combo7.Text:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity ="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print:


Form2.Print "Energy lost escaping LH volume ="; decel; " mks units":
Form2.Print "Energy gained approaching RH volume ="; accel:
Form2.Print "Difference ="; deltae:
Form2.Print


If Vsquared = 0 Then Form2.Print "Effective one-way velocity of light reaching
observer: v ="; v; "c":
Form2.Print "Fractional redshift: (c-v)/c = "; shiftratio


GoTo skip
escape:
Form2.Print "Escape velocity from LH volume to infinity="; vescape; "c":
Form2.Print "light cannot escape LH body. 'Black Hole' exists at centre."
GoTo skip


changeyz:
If Y R1 Or Z R2 Then Form2.Label6.Visible = True Else Form2.Label6.Visible
= False
GoTo skip
Xnort:
Form2.Print "X must not be zero":
GoTo skip
emty:
Form2.Show
Form2.Cls
Form2.Print "Reset values"
skip:
End Sub


I'm sure it means nothing to you.



SO SHOVE IT UP YOUR GLENLIVET BOTTLE.

Drunken old wabo, you are senile.

****ing old pommie dri/unj kjdjgk

I hope you are ****ing freexing...


Better than freaking like you.