Proper commemoration of Challenger Disaster

"Accident" is still accurate. Every accident is a result of human
miscalculation, error, design flaw, etc., and usually you can point to
a whole series of human blunders. In short, every accident is
somebody's fault. Challenger is no different in this respect from a
plane crash due to a badly designed or badly maintained oxygen system
or whatever.

Matt Bille

In article ,
Scott Lowther "scottlowtherAT ix DOT netcom DOT com" wrote:
...The Thiokol engineers
(some being co-workers of mine) knew it was a bad idea. But they were
over-ruled by manager-types.

And in response to being overruled, on an issue that they thought was very
serious, indeed life or death... they shut up.

"Mr. Reinartz asked if anyone in the loop had a different position or
disagreed... with the Thiokol recommendation as presented by Mr.
Kilminster. There were no dissenting responses." (Rogers Commission
report, vol. 1, p. 100)

"Ve vas chust following orders!"

--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

It may be a case of constructive redefinition!
OK, I withdraw my imposed implications, and
will find some other way of wording it...




"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Oberg wrote:
1. Stop calling it an 'accident'...
It was avoidable. It was somebody's FAULT...

I think you're tilting at windmills here, Jim. "Accident" is routinely
used to describe such disasters in, e.g., aviation, even if negligence or
incompetence was involved, so long as it was not the result of deliberate
malicious intent. Lockerbie was not an accident; the Chicago DC-10 crash
was, even though its direct cause was active incompetence (systematic use
of improper shortcuts in maintenance procedures).
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

Since its come up lets NOT forget Apollo one and columbia. Sad and odd
that all these disasters occured about the same time.......

It may be time to end some detail cover up of the Challenger disaster.
Its intersting regarding the responsibility of the engineers during
the final telcon too.

The Congress investigation report I mentioned here years ago had a
detail info I never read anywhere else. From Memory: After the famous
night telecom conference a signed fax with launch agreement from Morton
Thiokol to NASA/KSC was send. Its well known from the Rogers report.
But the Congress report noted a sentence on the original fax page not
published elsewhere.

It stated that this launch agreement is limited by the facts verbal
mentioned during the telecon. Or something that way. Thats a very
important thing from a legal view of what happend. As I understood
it, if the seal failed NASA would take 100% blame for it and nothing
on MTI. Its not the way it happend in the press. But wasnt it the legal
course afterwards?

The Congress investigation noted that such a sentence makes only sence
if the whole telecon was regularly taped. But they got the info that
no such tapes existed. I never bought that. The content of the telecon
was from its meaning well reconstructed by Rogers report. At least I
never heard something like critics here from people involved. As
reported some speakers from NASA like Mulloy were very clear in the
wording. Maybe it was to bad PR to get this voices up for docu history.
The tapes were probably only "restricted" or "confidential" at most.
Should be possible to get it by FOIA now. Except it got "Top Secret"
after lying to Congress...


## CrossPoint v3.12d R ##

In article ,
rk wrote:
...knew it was a bad idea. But they were over-ruled by manager-types.
And in response to being overruled, on an issue that they thought was very
serious, indeed life or death... they shut up.
"Ve vas chust following orders!"

...Mind you, it's not easy at all in that situation...

Agreed. I would be much less irritated by someone who said "it was a
difficult situation, and I was under a lot of pressure, and so I did the
wrong thing and kept quiet". What really irks me is to hear "I was
overruled, so it's not my fault". That's what the concentration-camp
guards said.

Saying "I did all I could without actually risking personal hardship" is
no fun. It's much more satisfying to say "I did all I could". But it's a
lie.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
rk wrote:
...knew it was a bad idea. But they were over-ruled by manager-types.
And in response to being overruled, on an issue that they thought was
very
serious, indeed life or death... they shut up.
"Ve vas chust following orders!"

...Mind you, it's not easy at all in that situation...

Agreed. I would be much less irritated by someone who said "it was a
difficult situation, and I was under a lot of pressure, and so I did the
wrong thing and kept quiet". What really irks me is to hear "I was
overruled, so it's not my fault". That's what the concentration-camp
guards said.

Saying "I did all I could without actually risking personal hardship" is
no fun. It's much more satisfying to say "I did all I could". But it's a
lie.


so what would you have done, Henry? Be specific.

"Henry Spencer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
rk wrote:
...Mind you, it's not easy at all in that situation...

Agreed. I would be much less irritated by someone who said "it was a
difficult situation, and I was under a lot of pressure, and so I did the
wrong thing and kept quiet".

SPeaking of quiet, anyone think that Bbo Hallre will finally keep his
promise and provide verifiable evidence that, had NASA management held
meetings according to policy that they said would have served no purpose,
that what happened to Columbia *would have* ended differently? I have him
killfiled, and I have no doubt that this thread will get a couple of "the
shttle is a dissastre wayting to happun" posts.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:28:46 -0500, "Terrell Miller"
wrote:

so what would you have done, Henry? Be specific.

....Well, that settles it. We're retiring the ICH T-Shirt, and
replacing them with WWHD silicone wristbands :-P

OM
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"OM" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:28:46 -0500, "Terrell Miller"
wrote:

so what would you have done, Henry? Be specific.

...Well, that settles it. We're retiring the ICH T-Shirt, and
replacing them with WWHD silicone wristbands :-P

score!

We'll discuss the royalty structure offline