Life on Saturn's moons?

OM wrote:
On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:23:51 -0700, Hop David
wrote:


jonathan wrote:


Nah, iron originates from microbes. Pretty much all of it.

More likely iron originates from fusing lighter elements in a star.


...Actually, the general concensus is that both theories are
applicable. Where it's applicable depends on where the iron is found.
Core iron is quite obviously from planetary formation processes, while
the deposits that are immediately subsurface that are *not* from
uplift or volcanic sources - the iron we mine, excavate, and taste in
rural drinking water - is from microbial processes.

Bacteria may use iron but they don't make it.


Which, of course, still doesn't answer whether or not Vegemite was
really the result of an Australian "Andromeda Strain" incident...

OM



--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 10:02:36 -0700, Hop David
wrote:

Cardman wrote:

That is a false theory. It has already been proved well enough that
Earth and Mars can frequently cross-contaminate each other.

Cite?

If you ready need I can look it up, but it tends to be difficult to
locate something your once read X years ago.

It is possible for Mars to contaminate the earth.

But it's more difficult to send earth ejecta to Mars since Earth has an
atmosphere and steeper gravity well.

You said it exactly. It is indeed a lot more difficult for Earth to
contaminate Mars through impact ejecta, but it has not been concluded
to be impossible.

I think that I read an estimate on the likelihood of this once,
including how long it would take to happen on average, but that is now
beyond my ability to recall. Still, considering the billions of years
that have passed, and the volume of large impacts, then it is possible
to expect the cross contamination to be high.

The main point in all this is that if microbes from Earth have
traveled to Mars, as has been deemed possible and likely, then by only
finding a location that they can survive (that is the hard part), then
they will grow and adapt.

So should NASA one day find life on Mars, then they will have to see
how it relates to Earth life. Any relationship, then the conclusion
that life is everywhere will have to be shelved.

Cardman.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:53:46 -0700, Hop David
wrote:

Bacteria may use iron but they don't make it.

....Not in the literal sense. However, it is a waste product that
wouldn't normally occur in the type of quantities we've seen produced.
And again, you're probably splitting hairs here, because elements
aren't "made" by any process, but merely separated from compounds and
molecular structures.

Save, of course, for some of the more exotic elements that don't
normally occur in nature, such as Vegemite...

OM

--

"Try Andre Dead Duck Canadian Champagne! | http://www.io.com/~o_m
Rated the lamest of the cheapest deported | Sergeant-At-Arms
brands by the Condemned in Killfile Hell!" | Human O-Ring Society

jonathan wrote:

"Scott Hedrick" wrote in message
...

"jonathan" wrote in message
.. .

And if it turns out the first place we look for life
elsewhere, Mars, has bacteria everywhere then
the notion that the universe if full of life is
pretty much a done-deal.

DOn't forget- humanoid and English-speaking!



Or they'll speak French, out of spite.

C'est bien connu que les extra-terrestres parlent presque
tous français (sauf les Klingons). N'importe quel quidam
ayant regardé les émissions télévisé de la Patrouille du
cosmos sait cela.


Alain Fournier

"Hop David" wrote in message
...


jonathan wrote:

Nah, iron originates from microbes. Pretty much all of it.

More likely iron originates from fusing lighter elements in a star.



Well I suppose so since everything does. But the question
is, how did the dark hematite deposits get here....
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/24/

It had to have been formed in an ice covered sea
being fed by underground hot springs. Which is
just the ideal conditions for just the kind of
bacteria that leaves behind just what their
finding.

It couldn't be a better fit.



--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

"Cardman" wrote in message
...


So should NASA one day find life on Mars, then they will have to see
how it relates to Earth life. Any relationship, then the conclusion
that life is everywhere will have to be shelved.


That conclusion was pretty much settled before this mission.
The chaos and complexity sciences are all about the
abstract properties of Darwinian evolution. And the
discovery is that with sufficient random interactions
then spontaneous organization is inevitable.

The second law does what? By breaking things down
it produces more variables and interactions. Which
is the ideal conditions for self organizing systems.

Life is not just inevitable, it's almost certain to happen
every good chance it gets. Evolution is an inherent
property of the universe.

Life is everywhere. That is a complete certainty.




Cardman.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:31:19 -0400, "jonathan"
wrote:

"Hop David" wrote in message
...

jonathan wrote:

Nah, iron originates from microbes. Pretty much all of it.

More likely iron originates from fusing lighter elements in a star.

Well I suppose so since everything does.

Not quite everything.

Most of the common star fusion is boring stuff, like with converting
Hydrogen to Helium. Only in the case of a supernova explosion can this
large compression on the core of a star create your more heaver
elements. That is most likely where your iron came from.

Still, even this falls far short of "everything". The best heavy
element creator around I guess is a hypernova. Then again the creation
of a black hole creates many heavy elements, where many of these would
be jetted out into space.

And despite all this, then the most heavy elements have to be
"man-made", when they do not exist in nature.

But the question
is, how did the dark hematite deposits get here....
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/01/24/

The opportunity landing site?

The hematite appeared here due to the evaporation of standing water,
which is not biological process.

It had to have been formed in an ice covered sea

The nature of ice is open to debate. All depends on the temperature
and thickness of the atmosphere. It would be my assumption that any
ice layer would not be thick, if it exists at all.

It is more likely that this sea had an anti-freeze property. Signs
tend to point to a warm and damp past on Mars.

being fed by underground hot springs.

Mars is not too hot in terms of hot springs. Earth has hot springs due
to the magma below. Mars has cooled down a lot since it first formed,
which mostly means no magma. However, there appears to be a few warm
points on Mars, which I suspect due to rising liquid water.

Which is just the ideal conditions for just the kind of
bacteria that leaves behind just what their
finding.

What you overlook is that this standing water used to come and go in
wet and dry spells. Life can have a difficult time getting started,
when all the water evaporates. This is not a short term event either,
when you could well be taking millions of years.

It couldn't be a better fit.

It is a theory that life could have lived in this foul water, but
there is no evidence yet to show that it has.

Cardman.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:44:03 -0400, "jonathan"
wrote:

That conclusion was pretty much settled before this mission.
The chaos and complexity sciences are all about the
abstract properties of Darwinian evolution. And the
discovery is that with sufficient random interactions
then spontaneous organization is inevitable.

The second law does what? By breaking things down
it produces more variables and interactions. Which
is the ideal conditions for self organizing systems.

Life is not just inevitable, it's almost certain to happen
every good chance it gets. Evolution is an inherent
property of the universe.

Life is everywhere. That is a complete certainty.

There is enough faith to start a religion. :-]

This may be a nice theory, but you have no facts to prove that it is
actually true. The biggest failure of not having this evidence is that
we have simply never really looked long and hard enough.

You should also keep in mind the other possibility. Maybe we are the
only life in the entire Universe. A unique fluke that is so unlikely
that it cannot be repeated in nature.

As just maybe our viewpoint here cannot see the countless other failed
Universes that have been and gone before this one. Not to forget the
big void of life in our own Universe.

That possibility has the least odds of being true. You should keep in
mind that this is the other option.

The most likely answer is that we are an insignificant "germ" compared
to the real life in this Universe. One day that real life may step on
this planet and then wipe the foul gunk of us off of their boot.

Cardman.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:44:03 -0400, "jonathan"
wrote:

Life is everywhere. That is a complete certainty.

....Cardman is an idiot. That too, is a complete certainty.

OM

--

"Try Andre Dead Duck Canadian Champagne! | http://www.io.com/~o_m
Rated the lamest of the cheapest deported | Sergeant-At-Arms
brands by the Condemned in Killfile Hell!" | Human O-Ring Society

On 2005-09-10, Cardman wrote:

Most of the common star fusion is boring stuff, like with converting
Hydrogen to Helium. Only in the case of a supernova explosion can this
large compression on the core of a star create your more heaver
elements. That is most likely where your iron came from.

"Ah, but only I know *why* they shine" - attr. Eddington

Or... not. Iron is routinely produced in massive stars; indeed, its
abundance is due to the fact that it's the heaviest element that
*doesn't* need something cataclysmic to form.

--
-Andrew Gray