Multiverse?, A simulation ? Nah---Only In Some SciFi Minds AndHollywood Perhaps

nightbat wrote

Ray Vingnutte wrote:

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 23:28:16 -0500
nightbat wrote:



Ray Vingnutte wrote:

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:27:31 -0500
nightbat wrote:



Ray Vingnutte wrote:
As I said earlier, I and people like Bostrom are not talking about
or referring to the sort of things we call or know as computers that
we have today. When it comes to being programmed well, if you go
back to the earliest life forms that evolved on earth they were
indeed like that, even today is a single celled organism a thinking
conscious entity or is it simply following a set of rules?, can it
make what it thinks are self aware decisions.
It is suggested we evolved from that, so how can you or anyone be
sure that we are not behaving in a similar fashion but on a larger
scale.


nightbat wrote

Ha, ha, did you yourself decide Ray, and not wait into the
potentially human programed and generated alternate molded far future,
to answer these posts or any others or was that just preprogrammed in
your mental thinking or DNA as a given? The present reality and future
belongs to the brave willing to face it, not sci fi it and think it's
just a non free will put up job in some designers mind. Living reality
versus man made one is after all states of reality one real and the
other man made artificial. Truth in labeling, anchoring systems, will
help as man learns to create and further extend his own altered man
made realities.

Ray
Not programmed in the way you are using the term programmed but yes a
form of programme may well be running.

nightbat

A program any program denotes or implies predisposition or set
limits of action, not intelligent free choice based course of action
permitting.

Ray
Look back at our history,
every major advance, large or small was going to happen anyway,

nightbat

Non evidenced presented false assumption based on certain
limited advances without incorporating all possible, secret discovered
non published, or lost and destroyed, knowledge. The amount, for
instance, of knowledge Dr. Tesla had but never published is assistant's
reported legendary, but he didn't trust human's of his time with such
profound acquired knowledge.

Ray
there
was or is nothing we can do about it.

nightbat

We can hopefully learn to respect one another and the full good
potential we all are or can be. Negativism breeds negativism, positive
enlightenment breeds advancement and respect for what is unique, you,
and all, when brought to positive enlightenment.

Ray
For example if Newton had not
done what he did with his laws of gravity then someone else was going to
do it sooner or later. The same with Einstein, the way we were
progressing it was inevitable that again sooner or later someone would
have achieved the same even if Einstein had never been born or had
been killed in an accident as a child. It may not have happened for
another 100 years but it would have happened. So if you discovered a
cure for some disease today and were killed before you could write it
down or tell anyone then it isn't going to be any real loss to humanity
because someone else will do it sooner or later. Does this sound as
though it is all random?, all happening by chance alone?, well it
doesn't to me, it does smack of strings being pulled, a setup job.

nightbat

Nothing is positively advanced unless done by someone
intelligently good in the search for truth and noble enlightenment. To
negatively think all good accomplishment automatically will eventually
happen for it's just a matter of time is false. It takes a good
dedicated person after years of applied perseverance and research to
achieve anything worth while not the leave it to the next guy syndrome.




Ray
You are basing that whole argument on the reality that we call
reality or rather the reality that fits nicely with your observation
of the environment around you. You then call that the true reality.

The problem you now face Nightbat is that the odds against you being
correct are staggeringly set against you.

nightbat

First there are many many real realities, for instance real
science based, political, social, economic, religious, military, etc.
versus man made virtual or artificial ones etc. Living cosmic reality,
physically and quantum energy based is yet to be fully comprehended.
Anyone who states they presently know the full universe picture is a
sci fi theorist, is substance influenced, or under some personal cloud
of great illusion. The best that brilliant scientist's and researchers
can do is look out onto this immense universe and ponder.
Theoretically apply what they and co peers have studied and learned
and comparative mutually observe to what presents before them.

Ray
Again how do you know you are not artificial?, you cannot be so sure, it
has always amazed me that humans like to think of themselves as
something so different and so special. If you could take yourself apart
atom by atom, proton by proton, you should know what you would end up
with, a pile of electrons. a pile of protons and a pile of neutrons. Do
the same with any other object you can lay your hands on and you will
have exactly the same, the quantities may differ thats all. Now whats
so special about your three piles now?, nothing.

nightbat

Wrong Ray, because you and I and all are made from condensed
energy, mathematically proofed energy, that is indestructible, infinite
in nature, and falsification permitting, but mathematical affirmed. It
is real whether in the observable physical condensed macro or the
invisible beyond Planck length sub micro quantum states.





Ray
If we cannot be sure what is real and what is not real on a quantum
level and we cannot, no matter how much you dislike that, it is
true, then how sure can you be that on a macro level the universe is
not just the same, you cannot be 100 percent sure. People like
Deutsch and many others would argue that when you are faced with a
choice lets say at a road junction, do you turn left or right?, they
would argue it doesn't really matter because you will do both no
matter which way you think you have chosen you will do both. Does
that sound as though you have free will? and which is the real
reality?, you turning left or you turning right?. That is what
apparently happens on a quantum level, so how sure can you be it
does not happen on a macro level, in short you cannot.

nightbat

Because the quantum states are microscopic in nature but we
detect and know they are there due to their effects on the macro one.
When a human is presented with a choice he does have free will, and
that is the difference, and they or you and I may travel down one road
or another by choice and never come through that same road again.
Lower species and degree intelligent forms follow their nature evolved
instincts, not higher evolved intelligence and free will based ones.
It is stimulus for the most part stemming and governed by environment,
overcoming limitations, or adaptive positive negative coping
strategies.

Ray
Free will again eh, listen to this, it is a talk about the human
brain, even Roger Penrose is now suggesting the brain could be a
quantum computer itself. You will need RealPlayer to listen to it
and stream it as you cannot actually download it.

Programme two is the one you migth like to listen to.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/whatremains.shtml

nightbat

Thank you Ray for referenced Real player program about
theoretical inferred human brain being possibly a quantum computer, it
is not. For the human brain is a real physical macro based one, much
better then any computer devisable by any present known human
duplicating means. While the logic processing and mathematical
computations handling abilities, including designed and graphic
simulations for applied real world applications are improving and
advancing, nothing can duplicate the original single or collective human
imputed ones in the first place. Respectfully, Sir Penrose can suggest
anything he wants but that does not make it so, for only human inputted
known or original creative thought incorporated processes and understood
knowledge can make any computer function only according to therefore at
the time actuating residual designed program limits.






Ray
I can only say it for a third time, no one is saying that the
computers of today are real thinking machines.

nightbat

Good, for a returned third time at least you admittedly
understand the difference and clarification will remain true for the
future, because what is man man is not nature or quantum made.
Affecting yes, as all quantum effects can be detected but not ever
substituted one for the other.


Ray
Of course we are nature, of course we must be governed by quantum
effects, the trouble is you want to put humans on some sort of pedestal
as being something great, something different, well we are not. You and
I and everyone else are here due to what can only be described as the
most extraordinary coincidence but special we are not.

nightbat

Yes, we are a product of Nature's energy and not true Ray, you
and all folks are the most unique entities in the Universe, for you are
living condensed energy, self mental will based, not limited inanimate
or invisible only pure quantum existing micro detected energy objects.




Ray
For the fourth time no one is saying that the computers of today are
the true reality or are thinking for themselves.

nightbat

For the fourth time Ray, back at you, and keep repeating if
necessary until it finally registers that all man made artificial
thinking machines are not real thinking for themselves or ever can be
because they are man made only programed machines.

Ray
For the fith time......oh bugger, I will just take solace in the
sure knowledge that the odds are against you Nightbat. Take care,
especially if you are anywhere near a hurrican!.

nightbat

The universe for the fifth return time is governed by reality
of
eternal energy in a disturbed field state. Earth based hurricanes are
governed by that reflected disturbed chaotic momentum without set
determined uniform thinking possibility unlike that of a human's. A
hurricane's path is unpredictable due to it's immense built-up power
and cross applicable environment effecting forces, all non free will
derivative. It can appear to have a mind of its own because of human
non full understanding of the multi collective forces acting on a
single presented extreme vortex wind blown entity. Let it go Ray, you
or our collective and even best dreamed up sci fi imagined future
reality can never supersede one true Earth based or entire Nature's
real one. And Just one altering real cosmic effecting event can make
sure of that. Enjoy your present really real reality for what it is,
for it's unique and historically species time line dimensionally
limited.

Ray
I am trying to come to terms with what is supposedly reality, it is you
who are stuck in the rut of thinking that you are special, that humans
are special, that we have real free will.

nightbat

I know you are Ray, for you have made that abundantly clear to
me, however, I have indicated from a purely profound science discovered
based frame one, it is real and not artificially simulated or simply
just designer dictated, for our Universe and reality is based on energy,
real energy, not designer made or other alien entity program setup
based. Energy is indestructible, it cannot be made up, and you are a
unique form of condensed energy with no possibility of your being
artificially created from it because energy has been mathematically
proofed real. I am not stuck, as you claim, on reality subject question
as you most net admitted are or unique basis understanding of energy and
all the special folks that are created from it. And yes, everyone is
special, due not only to my growing world wide fan following to the
affirmative, but to your and their own unique arrangement of condensed
energy and what you and they mentally and physically resultantly and
ultimately chose to do with it.

Don't worry Ray, for even the alt.astronomy newsgroup, ha, ha, strange
purported far advanced Darla Aliens have apparently taken notice of
nightbat's affirmative understanding of all unique existence of life as
not setup based but mathematical astronomical odds against energy
permitting under existing immense Universe dynamics understanding. No
sci fi multiverse, parallel universes, strings, folded multi branes or
endless hyper dimensions, imaginary graviton made up particles, or
altered man made realities needed.


ponder on,
the nightbat