Oh no, not again

On Sunday, 1 July 2018 16:16:49 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

Getting angry at a 500 year old historical figure. Global warmists really aren't in-charge of their emotions.

Chris.B:
Doesn't the mere fact that UFO sightings are classified by most governments
make them far more serious...

And that's how it's done, folks. You lay down a false premise such as
"UFO sightings are classified by most governments" and non-critical,
non-questioning thinkers assimilate that falsehood as fact and you've
got em; they're fodder for your myth machine.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 9:16:49 PM UTC+1, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

It can be dismaying sometimes to consider that nobody else can discuss the matter in broads outlines much less that the level of details although some did approach the realm of astronomy that should occupy observers -

"Here lurked the danger of serious misunderstanding. Maffeo Barberini (Urban VIII), while he was a Cardinal, had counselled Galileo to treat Copernicanism as a hypothesis, not as a confirmed truth. But ‘hypothesis' meant two very different things. On the one hand, astronomers were assumed to deal only with hypotheses, i.e. accounts of the observed motions of the stars and planets that were not claimed to be true. Astronomical theories were mere instruments for calculation and prediction, a view that is often called ‘instrumentalism'. On the other hand, a hypothesis could also be understood as a theory that was not yet proved but was open to eventual confirmation. This was a ‘realist' position. Galileo thought that Copernicanism was true, and presented it as a hypothesis, i.e. as a provisional idea that was potentially physically true, and he discussed the pros and cons, leaving the issue undecided. This did not correspond to the instrumentalist view of Copernicanism that was held by Maffeo Barberini and others. They thought that Copernicus' system was a purely instrumental device, and Maffeo Barberini was convinced that it could never be proved. This ambiguity pervaded the whole Galileo Affair.

http://www.unav.edu/web/ciencia-razo...galileo-affair

Considering the inability to resolve the issue and the subsequent division into science vs religion, the emergence of empiricism in the vacuum created by the unresolved issue, people should care but they don't.

The Pope was correct without knowing exactly why and likewise Galileo - the system for predicting astronomical events cannot be used to prove the Sun is at the center of the solar system.

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 3:33:12 AM UTC+1, RichA wrote:
On Sunday, 1 July 2018 16:16:49 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

Getting angry at a 500 year old historical figure. Global warmists really aren't in-charge of their emotions.

Only rarely do people dare venture into the historical and technical details which so changed the landscape from geocentricity to the Sun centered system with a moving Earth and a central Sun as the centerpiece of the new approach.

Even Owen Barfield's excellent commentary didn't nail down the actual blockage at the bottom of the perceptual quagmire which distinguishes geocentricity from a moving Earth or predictive astronomy from perceptual astronomy -

"When the ordinary man hears that the Church told Galileo that he might teach Copernicanism as a hypothesis which saved all the celestial phenomena satisfactorily, but "not as being the truth," he laughs. But this was really how Ptolemaic astronomy had been taught! In its actual place in history it was not a casuistical quibble; it was the refusal (unjustified it may be) to allow the introduction of a new and momentous doctrine. It was not simply a new theory of the nature of the celestial movements that was feared, but a new theory of the nature of theory; namely, that, if a hypothesis saves all the appearances. It is identical with truth." Barfield 1957


Only intellectual rednecks lean on the crude view that Church doctrine required an Earth centered system when history shows it is a prevalent view in all eras, at least where the vast majority are unable to deal with the actual arguments -

"...just as Cleanthes thought it right that the Greeks collectively should impeach Aristagoras the Stoic, of impiety, for overthrowing the altar of earth, because the fellow attempted to account for visible phenomena by supposing that the sky remains fixed, and that the earth rolls round down an oblique circle, turning at the same time upon its own axis." Plutarch

The argument of Urban VIII brings to the surface many issues including what defines a planet from the Sun as the central issue was direct/retrograde motions (planets) vs direct motion(Sun) thereby exposing the flaw of RA/Dec which is based on a North/South motion of the Sun.

"Moreover, we see the other five planets also retrograde at times, and
stationary at either end [of the regression]. And whereas the sun
always advances along its own direct path, they wander in various
ways, straying sometimes to the south and sometimes to the north; that
is why they are called "planets" [wanderers]. Copernicus

In the absence of any new empirical icons, these topics should be discussed with vigor and vibrancy. Statements that are meant to project authority don't cut it any more and not soon enough that that deplorable situation doesn't really exist presently. People shouldn't be afraid or disinterested, it takes effort to experience the real satisfaction of this type of astronomy just as it did at the time of the Pope and Galileo.

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:33:10 -0700 (PDT), RichA
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 July 2018 16:16:49 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

Getting angry at a 500 year old historical figure. Global warmists really aren't in-charge of their emotions.

I'm not angry. I'm just laughing at the irony of his comment.

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT), RichA
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 July 2018 09:05:04 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:52:26 -0700 (PDT), RichA
wrote:

On Saturday, 30 June 2018 09:17:26 UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
A former NASA scientists claims UFOs really are alien spacecraft, and the government has been covering it up...

https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/30/ex-na...ments-7672163/

John Savard

Why not? They believe in man-made global warming.

Yeah. And they believe the Sun is the center of the Solar System, and
that the Earth is spherical. What's next?!

Hopefully, less sloppy science, cherry-picked data and fewer extra-NASA agenda-driven goals.

Hopefully enough irrational people like yourself, who don't understand
science and are afraid of it, will die off before our civilizations
collapse. But I'm not optimistic.

Quadibloc wrote in
:

A former NASA scientists claims UFOs really are alien
spacecraft, and the government has been covering it up...

https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/30/ex-na...ys-aliens-exis
t-encounters-covered-governments-7672163/

Noting the source, it's not even worth reading. I'd need a deposition
under oath by the scientist in question that he actually talked to a
reporter from metro.co.uk to even consider the possibility that he
actually exists.

They're about as credible as The Onion. About as fictional, too.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Chris L Peterson wrote in
:

On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

Is that the pope that gave Copernicus permission to dedicate "On the
Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres" (which would have been illegal
without permission) to him?

(Galileo's real problem wasn't that he said the earth revolved around
the sun. His problem was that he was a trolling asshole who
embarrased and ****ed off people with very powerful friends.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Monday, 2 July 2018 18:28:36 UTC+2, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
His problem was that he was a trolling asshole who
embarrasSed and ****ed off people with very powerful friends.)

Construct a sentence as an example of irony.

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 2:27:16 PM UTC+1, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 19:33:10 -0700 (PDT), RichA
wrote:

On Sunday, 1 July 2018 16:16:49 UTC-4, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

There is no 'belief' requirement for a Sun centered solar system...

Tell that to His Assholliness Urban VIII.

Getting angry at a 500 year old historical figure. Global warmists really aren't in-charge of their emotions.

I'm not angry. I'm just laughing at the irony of his comment.

The term 'hypothesis' had a certain meaning back when the Sun centered system was first proposed but this 'saving appearances' has more or less been lost to history so when the original astronomers commented on Copernicus they were speaking in a language that wouldn't register with RA/Dec proponents -

“Better still, if someone wishes, he can assign to the sky those motions of the earth that [Copernicus] adds to the first two, and use the same calculation
procedures. But that highly learned and intelligent man considered it inadvisable, on account of these undisciplined minds, to invert the entire
system of his hypotheses, and he contented himself with having established
that which was sufficient for the true discovery of phenomena.� Gemma Frisius

The direct/retrogrades of the slower moving planets seen from a faster Earth remains solid as an illusion however the direct/retrogrades of the faster moving Venus and Mercury are entirely different and actual.