5 Soviet Space Programs That Prove Russia Was Insane

On Apr 7, 6:59*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:

but on buran it flew completely unmanned on its trial flight. the
shuttles first flight flew manned, and was nearly destroyed by sonic
vibrations

Cite to indicate the sky was falling?

--
"Der Feige droht nur, wo er sicher ist."
* * * * --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Replay the tapes of the shuttle liftoffs and there are repeated
episodes
of O ring burn thru. I had a standing bet back in those years with a
coworker
that there would be a disaster on shuttle liftoff. NASA was massively
"lucky" until
it wasn't.

Trig

| wrote:
Replay the tapes of the shuttle liftoffs and there are repeated
episodes
of O ring burn thru. I had a standing bet back in those years with a
coworker
that there would be a disaster on shuttle liftoff. NASA was massively
"lucky" until
it wasn't.

Um, this statement leaves me puzzled.

I don't have the data right in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the only
Shuttle to have experienced complete burn-through through both sets of O Rings
was 51-L (Challenger).

Watching videos of any previous launches would not have shown anything because
burn through did not occur. You did have "erosion" of the primary O ring but
in all cases prior to 51-L the secondary ring did not fail, so I doubt that a
video from outside the booster casing would reveal anything.

The primary contributing factor as I remember it was joint rotation after
ignition. This was not expected behavior for the SRB joints and was not
compensated for during design of the original SRB tang-and-clevis segment
joint. This was what was leading to primary O ring erosion in the first place,
something that was NOT supposed to happen at all, even though two rings were
there to provide redundancy. Couple that fact with the fact that 51-L was the
coldest launch of Shuttle up to that time (it got a real cold soaking
overnight the night before launch with unusually low temperatures for the
Cape) and you got a situation where both rings failed.

However the root cause of the problem was not the O-ring, but the case joint.
It got a re-design after Challenger to fix the rotation issue that was causing
primary ring erosion. AFAIK that cured the erosion problem. If anyone has data
showing otherwise I'd sure like to see the cite.

We've been over this territory in this newsgroup many many times. In system
failures like this what we have seen now (twice) with Shuttle was that the
problem is somewhat more psychological than scientific or engineering based.
That is that idea that with complex systems with complex behaviors when
confronted with a not well understood situation, there is a tendency to rely
too heavily on past experience as proof that with the more successful
experiences one obtains with a system with fuzzy behaviors the less likely
that on the next launch there will be a problem. Just because you "got away
with it" the last time or even the last fifty times doesn't mean it won't
happen the next time.

Trig, a standing bet like that with a co-worker, if you knew that this is what
was going on, marks you as a good gambler.

Dave

David Spain wrote:
| wrote:
Replay the tapes of the shuttle liftoffs and there are repeated
episodes
of O ring burn thru.

Watching videos of any previous launches would not have shown anything
because burn through did not occur. You did have "erosion" of the
primary O ring but in all cases prior to 51-L the secondary ring did not
fail, so I doubt that a video from outside the booster casing would
reveal anything.


One caveat, what old videos *might* show is the black 'puff of smoke' that
51-L exhibited briefly at ignition until the rings sealed. Nothing was visible
after that until the secondary ring failed.

Dave

On Apr 8, 6:25*am, David Spain wrote:
| wrote:
Replay the tapes of the shuttle liftoffs and there are repeated
episodes
of O ring burn thru. I had a standing bet back in those years with a
coworker
that there would be a disaster on shuttle liftoff. NASA was massively
"lucky" until
it wasn't.

Um, this statement leaves me puzzled.

I don't have the data right in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the only
Shuttle to have experienced complete burn-through through both sets of O Rings
was 51-L (Challenger).

Watching videos of any previous launches would not have shown anything because
burn through did not occur. You did have "erosion" of the primary O ring but
in all cases prior to 51-L the secondary ring did not fail, so I doubt that a
video from outside the booster casing would reveal anything.

The primary contributing factor as I remember it was joint rotation after
ignition. This was not expected behavior for the SRB joints and was not
compensated for during design of the original SRB tang-and-clevis segment
joint. This was what was leading to primary O ring erosion in the first place,
something that was NOT supposed to happen at all, even though two rings were
there to provide redundancy. Couple that fact with the fact that 51-L was the
coldest launch of Shuttle up to that time (it got a real cold soaking
overnight the night before launch with unusually low temperatures for the
Cape) and you got a situation where both rings failed.

However the root cause of the problem was not the O-ring, but the case joint.
It got a re-design after Challenger to fix the rotation issue that was causing
primary ring erosion. AFAIK that cured the erosion problem. If anyone has data
showing otherwise I'd sure like to see the cite.

We've been over this territory in this newsgroup many many times. In system
failures like this what we have seen now (twice) with Shuttle was that the
problem is somewhat more psychological than scientific or engineering based.
That is that idea that with complex systems with complex behaviors when
confronted with a not well understood situation, there is a tendency to rely
too heavily on past experience as proof that with the more successful
experiences one obtains with a system with fuzzy behaviors the less likely
that on the next launch there will be a problem. Just because you "got away
with it" the last time or even the last fifty times doesn't mean it won't
happen the next time.

Trig, a standing bet like that with a co-worker, if you knew that this is what
was going on, marks you as a good gambler.

Dave

What I recall was ignited flames along the side of the solid rocket
boosters
well above the bell nozzles as the shuttle was up and in full flight.
This was
well prior in the liftoff to space schedule prior to the Challenger
disaster.
It was early enough in time that 'Uncle Walter' was intoning his
comments on the
successful liftoff in one instances that I recall.

they had eyes but they could not see..................Trig

On Apr 8, 1:00*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
David Spain wrote:
| wrote:
Replay the tapes of the shuttle liftoffs and there are repeated
episodes
of O ring burn thru. I had a standing bet back in those years with a
coworker
that there would be a disaster on shuttle liftoff. NASA was massively
"lucky" until
it wasn't.

Um, this statement leaves me puzzled.

I don't have the data right in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the only
Shuttle to have experienced complete burn-through through both sets of O Rings
was 51-L (Challenger).

Watching videos of any previous launches would not have shown anything because
burn through did not occur. You did have "erosion" of the primary O ring but
in all cases prior to 51-L the secondary ring did not fail, so I doubt that a
video from outside the booster casing would reveal anything.

I believe that examination of past videos showed little pulses of
'smoke' from the SRB joints on some of them.

--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
* * live in the real world." *
* * * * * * * * * * * -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden

Smoke "hell" rather it was live flame for sure.

Fred J. McCall wrote:

I believe that examination of past videos showed little pulses of
'smoke' from the SRB joints on some of them.



This I buy as possible since we know the joint sealed up (for awhile) on 51-L
after that puff of black smoke that occurred at SRB ignition. Smoke and or
soot coming out of the case joint would have been a huge huge red flag in any
scenario that didn't suffer from 'go fever'.

In fact Fred, I believe I recall this being mentioned by others on this
newsgroup a long time ago.

| wrote:

What I recall was ignited flames along the side of the solid rocket
boosters well above the bell nozzles as the shuttle was up and in full flight.
This was well prior in the liftoff to space schedule prior to the Challenger
disaster.

I cannot accept this without proof. For the simple reason that there was no
'blow by' of the secondary O rings on any flight prior to 51-L. If it was
flames you were seeing coming from the SRB's it wasn't coming from the case
joints.

It was early enough in time that 'Uncle Walter' was intoning his
comments on the
successful liftoff in one instances that I recall.


Uncle Walter was a space buff but not a rocket expert.

Dave

April 4, 2011

Stephanie Schierholz
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1100


Kelly Humphries
Johnson Space Center, Houston
281-483-5111

RELEASE: 11-096

SPACE STATION CREW LAUNCHES FROM BIRTHPLACE OF HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT

WASHINGTON -- One week shy of the 50th anniversary of the first human
spaceflight, NASA astronaut Ron Garan and Russian cosmonauts Andrey
Borisenko and Alexander Samokutyaev launched to the International
Space Station at 6:18 p.m. EDT Monday (4:18 a.m. local time, April 5)
from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.

The Soyuz rocket that lifted Garan, Borisenko and Samokutyaev into
orbit was decorated with Yuri Gagarin's name. The mission lifted off
from the same launch pad used April 12, 1961, when Gagarin became the
first human to journey into space.

The crew is scheduled to dock its Soyuz TMA-21 spacecraft to the
station's Poisk port at 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, April 6. The crew
members will join Expedition 27 Commander Dmitry Kondratyev and
Flight Engineers Cady Coleman of NASA and Paolo Nespoli of the
European Space Agency, who have been aboard the orbiting laboratory
since December 2010.

On Apr 7, 7:51*am, jacob navia wrote:
April 4, 2011

Stephanie Schierholz
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1100


Kelly Humphries
Johnson Space Center, Houston
281-483-5111

RELEASE: 11-096

SPACE STATION CREW LAUNCHES FROM BIRTHPLACE OF HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT

WASHINGTON -- One week shy of the 50th anniversary of the first human
spaceflight, NASA astronaut Ron Garan and Russian cosmonauts Andrey
Borisenko and Alexander Samokutyaev launched to the International
Space Station at 6:18 p.m. EDT Monday (4:18 a.m. local time, April 5)
from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.

The Soyuz rocket that lifted Garan, Borisenko and Samokutyaev into
orbit was decorated with Yuri Gagarin's name. The mission lifted off
from the same launch pad used April 12, 1961, when Gagarin became the
first human to journey into space.

The crew is scheduled to dock its Soyuz TMA-21 spacecraft to the
station's Poisk port at 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, April 6. The crew
members will join Expedition 27 Commander Dmitry Kondratyev and
Flight Engineers Cady Coleman of NASA and Paolo Nespoli of the
European Space Agency, who have been aboard the orbiting laboratory
since December 2010.

The pioneers of the past reflect dimly the courage we lack today to
settle the frontiers that welcome us across the skies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UizA_5SVX0

On Apr 8, 7:52*am, William Mook wrote:
On Apr 7, 7:51*am, jacob navia wrote:



April 4, 2011

Stephanie Schierholz
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1100


Kelly Humphries
Johnson Space Center, Houston
281-483-5111

RELEASE: 11-096

SPACE STATION CREW LAUNCHES FROM BIRTHPLACE OF HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT

WASHINGTON -- One week shy of the 50th anniversary of the first human
spaceflight, NASA astronaut Ron Garan and Russian cosmonauts Andrey
Borisenko and Alexander Samokutyaev launched to the International
Space Station at 6:18 p.m. EDT Monday (4:18 a.m. local time, April 5)
from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan.

The Soyuz rocket that lifted Garan, Borisenko and Samokutyaev into
orbit was decorated with Yuri Gagarin's name. The mission lifted off
from the same launch pad used April 12, 1961, when Gagarin became the
first human to journey into space.

The crew is scheduled to dock its Soyuz TMA-21 spacecraft to the
station's Poisk port at 7:18 p.m. on Wednesday, April 6. The crew
members will join Expedition 27 Commander Dmitry Kondratyev and
Flight Engineers Cady Coleman of NASA and Paolo Nespoli of the
European Space Agency, who have been aboard the orbiting laboratory
since December 2010.

The pioneers of the past reflect dimly the courage we lack today to
settle the frontiers that welcome us across the skieshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UizA_5SVX0

We could have had a nation on the moon and mars by 2000, and inspiring
songs like this that sang of dreams that united our world in a peace
brought about by a diversity of people united to overcome great
obstacles and a hope borne of meeting the challenges of a great dream
we all share.

We are one
but we are many
and from all the lands
on Earth we've come
we share a dream
and sing with one voice
I am
You are
We are Australian.

It breaks my heart that we have failed to achieve the greatness that
we were capable of, and that as a result, many billions will
needlessly die in the coming years.

a contribuiting cause of challengers loss was very high crosswinds
that helped unseal the o ring joint