Proposed experiment for detection of absolute motion

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT), GSS
wrote:


In brief, the proposed experiment involves measurement of to
and fro light propagation times between two fixed points on earth.

A number of such experiments have been performed in the past. It
wouldn't hurt for more to be done.

The Roland De Witte 1991 Experiment (to the Memory of Roland De Witte)
Progress in Physics, 3, 60-65, 2006.
http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...6/PP-06-11.PDF

"....His results are in excellent agreement with the extensive data
from the Miller 1925/26 detection of absolute motion using a gas-mode
Michelson interferometer atop Mt.Wilson, California...."


Here is a paper which did not claim detection of absolute motion, but
graphs provided in the paper, appear to show such effects.

Test of the Isotropy of the One-Way Speed of Light using
Hydrogen-Maser Frequency Standards,
Krisher T.P., Maleki L., Lutes G.F., Primas L.E., Logan R.T., Anderson
J.D. and Will C.M.
Phys Rev D, 42, 731-734, 1990.


Here is a paper containing a diagram (Fig. 6) that graphically
compares the results of the above mentioned experiments and other
similar experiments, plotted against sidereal time.

Combining NASA/JPL One-Way Optical-Fiber Light-Speed Data with
Spacecraft Earth-Flyby Doppler-Shift Data to Characterise 3-Space Flow
Progress in Physics, 4, 50-64, 2009.
http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...9/PP-19-05.PDF

The correlations suggest a common cause related to sideral time, which
would be consistent with absolute motion effects.

On Jul 10, 8:35*pm, xxein wrote:
On Jul 10, 7:38*pm, " wrote:



On Jul 10, 9:57*am, GSS wrote:

Friends,
* * * * *Last year I had held detailed discussions in these forums, on
the feasibility of experimental detection of absolute motion.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...ead/e24d067ec6...
Subsequently I compiled a formal paper titled "Proposed experiment for
detection of absolute motion" and submitted to Physics Essays (An
International Journal dedicated to fundamental questions in Physics)
for publication. After a detailed peer review, this paper has now been
published in this journal [http://www.physicsessays.com/]. The
abstract of this paper is reproduced below.

* The peer review was faulty; someone should have caught the obvious
flaw.

* * * * * * * * *"According to special theory of relativity, all motion is relative
and existence of any privileged or absolute inertial frame of
reference, which could be practically distinguished from all other
inertial frames, is ruled out. However, we may define an absolute or
universal reference frame as the one which is at rest with respect to
the center of mass of the universe

* There's the flaw. General Relativity assumes a three-dimensional
space which is curved through a fourth dimension such that the three-
dimensional space is unbounded but finite in extent; the usual analogy
is the two-dimensional surface of a balloon which is curved through a
third dimension leaving the surface equally unbounded but of finite
extent. No point *on the surface of the balloon* can be considered its
center of mass; it is located at a point within the balloon.
Analogously, no point in three-dimensional space can be considered the
center of mass of the Universe.

* Your proposal to falsify Special Relativity seems to tacitly assume
that space must be Euclidean. It thus has the prerequisite of
unambiguously falsifying the concept of curved space and with it all
of General Relativity in order for the center of mass of the universe
to be contained within observable three-dimensional space. You might
consider starting with an alternate explanation for observations
attributed to GR, for instance gravitational lensing.


xxein: *You have a lot to learn too.

Never said I didn't.

I pointed out that the OP's basis of his suggested experiment (that
it can falsify SR) tacitly assumes GR to be false, and then suggested
ways to start trying to reconcile that assumption with observations
that appear to disagree with it.

Do you disagree with my assessment or my suggestion?

Specifically, do you disagree that his assumption of an observable
center of mass of the universe is in conflict with GR, that said
conflict is due to observed gravitational lensing quantitatively
supporting spatial curvature, that spatial curvature eliminates an
observable center of mass for the universe, or do you think that he
should ignore both?

IOW, what have you got besides hip shots?


Mark L. Fergerson

On Jul 11, 12:28*pm, Surfer wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT), GSS

wrote:

In brief, the proposed experiment involves measurement of to
and fro light propagation times between two fixed points on earth.

A number of such experiments have been performed in the past. It
wouldn't hurt for more to be done.

The Roland De Witte 1991 Experiment (to the Memory of Roland De Witte)
Progress in Physics, 3, 60-65, 2006.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...6/PP-06-11.PDF

"....His results are in excellent agreement with the extensive data
from the Miller 1925/26 detection of absolute motion using a gas-mode
Michelson interferometer atop Mt.Wilson, California...."

Here is a paper which did not claim detection of absolute motion, but
graphs provided in the paper, appear to show such effects.

Test of the Isotropy of the One-Way Speed of Light using
Hydrogen-Maser Frequency Standards,
Krisher T.P., Maleki L., Lutes G.F., Primas L.E., Logan R.T., Anderson
J.D. and Will C.M.
Phys Rev D, 42, 731-734, 1990.

Here is a paper containing a diagram (Fig. 6) that graphically
compares the results of the above mentioned experiments and other
similar experiments, plotted against sidereal time.

Combining NASA/JPL One-Way Optical-Fiber Light-Speed Data with
Spacecraft Earth-Flyby Doppler-Shift Data to Characterise 3-Space Flow
Progress in Physics, 4, 50-64, 2009.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...9/PP-19-05.PDF

The correlations suggest a common cause related to sideral time, which
would be consistent with absolute motion effects.

Has the mainstream Physics community accepted the above referred
results?

If so, the second postulate of SR should have been invalidated by now.
As per Isaac (previous post), very many persons should have won the
Nobel Prize by now for detecting the absolute motion!!

On the other hand, if mainstream Physics community has not accepted
the above referred results, then could it be that they will never
accept the results of any experiment that points to the invalidity of
Relativity?

GSS

On Jul 10, 9:57 am, ASS wrote:


I am sure that whenever and whichever agency conducts the
proposed experiment,

It's not gonna happen, no agency wastes money conducting idiotic
experiments proposed by cranks.

On Jul 11, 12:28 am, Surfer wrote:

A number of such experiments have been performed in the past. It
wouldn't hurt for more to be done.

The Roland De Witte 1991 Experiment (to the Memory of Roland De Witte)
Progress in Physics, 3, 60-65, 2006.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...6/PP-06-11.PDF


Experiment not reproducible, a clear crackpot.


"....His results are in excellent agreement with the extensive data
from the Miller 1925/26 detection of absolute motion using a gas-mode
Michelson interferometer atop Mt.Wilson, California...."


We've been over your misunderstanding of the Dayton Miller experiment
(your inability to understand error bars)


Here is a paper which did not claim detection of absolute motion, but
graphs provided in the paper, appear to show such effects.

Test of the Isotropy of the One-Way Speed of Light using
Hydrogen-Maser Frequency Standards,
Krisher T.P., Maleki L., Lutes G.F., Primas L.E., Logan R.T., Anderson
J.D. and Will C.M.
Phys Rev D, 42, 731-734, 1990.


You are such a dishonest idiot, Peter. This is a mainstream experiment
for constraining light speed anisotropy. Only a dishonest idiot like
you can distort it to claim that it provides any proof to absolute
motion.


Combining NASA/JPL One-Way Optical-Fiber Light-Speed Data with
Spacecraft Earth-Flyby Doppler-Shift Data to Characterise 3-Space Flow
Progress in Physics, 4, 50-64, 2009.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...9/PP-19-05.PDF


The obligatory ass-kissing to Cahill. Why is your nose so brown,
Peter?

On Jul 10, 12:57*pm, GSS wrote:

Dear GSS: I have already detected Earth's absolute speed and
direction using my first-generation X, Y, and Z interferometer.
Einstein himself said that if an Earth-mounted experiment could ever
do that, his SR theory would be disproved. Well, I've disproved most
of what Einstein claimed to have done! The most important disproof?
Space-time and relativity are not in any way involved in correctly
explaining the function of the Universe! — NoEinstein —

Friends,
* * * * *Last year I had held detailed discussions in these forums, on
the feasibility of experimental detection of absolute motion.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...ead/e24d067ec6...
Subsequently I compiled a formal paper titled "Proposed experiment for
detection of absolute motion" and submitted to Physics Essays (An
International Journal dedicated to fundamental questions in Physics)
for publication. After a detailed peer review, this paper has now been
published in this journal [http://www.physicsessays.com/]. The
abstract of this paper is reproduced below.

* * * * * * * * *"According to special theory of relativity, all motion is relative
and existence of any privileged or absolute inertial frame of
reference, which could be practically distinguished from all other
inertial frames, is ruled out. However, we may define an absolute or
universal reference frame as the one which is at rest with respect to
the center of mass of the universe and assume the speed c of
propagation of light to be an isotropic universal constant in that
frame. Any motion with respect to such a reference frame will be
called “absolute motion.” The proposed experiment establishes the
feasibility of detection of such an absolute motion by measuring the
up-link and down-link signal propagation times between two fixed
points on the surface of earth. With current technological
advancements in pulsed lasers, detectors, precision atomic clocks, and
computers, feasibility of the proposed *experiment has been confirmed.
Successful conduct of the proposed experiment will initiate a paradigm
shift in fundamental physics. ©2010 Physics Essays Publication"
Phys. Essays 23, 442 (2010)http://physicsessays.aip.org/getabs/...et?prog=normal...

* * * * *In brief, the proposed experiment involves measurement of to
and fro light propagation times between two fixed points on earth. Let
us consider two points A and B fixed on the surface of earth (at equal
gravitational potential) and aligned along east-west direction. Let
the separation distance AB be about 30 to 50 km. Position two
identical precision atomic clocks mid-way between A and B and mutually
synchronize them in close-by position. After synchronizing, shift the
two clocks to stations A and B by slow transport. Now as part of the
experiment, send a light pulse from A to B and record its time of
flight with the two clocks at A and B. Let this measured time of
flight be T_ab. Then send another light pulse from B to A and record
its time of flight with the two clocks. Let this measured time of
flight be T_ba. Repeat these to and fro time of flight measurements
for a period of 24 hours. Find the maximum difference in the to and
fro flight times, |T_ab-T_ba| over the test period.

As per SR (if the second postulate is true), this to and fro flight
time difference |T_ab-T_ba| must be of the order of zero (or a random
scatter of values within +/- 5 nanoseconds). On the other hand, if the
second postulate is not true, then the maximum difference in the to
and fro flight times, |T_ab-T_ba| is expected to be in the range of
about 200 nanoseconds.

* * * * * * * * *An estimated cost of the test equipment (including Cesium atomic
clocks and pulsed lasers) is within $40,000. The proposed experiment
can be conducted by many space agencies, research centers and academic
institutions provided they get motivated for undertaking this
challenging task. The proposed method of detecting absolute motion in
space is considered very simple but unique, the like of which has not
been conducted by anyone as yet. It is unique in the following
respects.
(a)There is no attempt to measure the one-way or two-way speed of
light.
(b)There is no need to measure the distance between the two fixed
points on the surface of earth for conducting this experiment.
(c)There is no dependence on the wave properties of light for
measuring any interference effects or fringe shifts. It does not
involve any reflection of waves from moving mirrors.
(d)For detecting absolute motion in space, we only need to measure the
up-link (T_ab) and down-link (T_ba) signal propagation times between
two locations on the surface of earth. It does not require the use of
any satellite or the GPS system.
(e)The result depends on the difference between T_ab and T_ba, due to
which the hardware delays and atmospheric signal propagation delays
get canceled out and do not influence the result. Commercially
available Cesium atomic clocks provide time measurement accuracy of
the order of about one nanosecond, which is sufficient for the conduct
of the proposed experiment.

* * * * *I am sure that whenever and whichever agency conducts the
proposed experiment, an absolute motion in the form of a unique
velocity vector of the solar system in the absolute space, will be
detected. I only wonder whether NASA or any other agency/institution
will come forward to conduct this experiment first.

G S Sandhuhttp://book.fundamentalphysics.info/

On Jul 10, 1:46*pm, kenseto wrote:
On Jul 10, 12:57*pm, GSS wrote:





Friends,
* * * * *Last year I had held detailed discussions in these forums, on
the feasibility of experimental detection of absolute motion.http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...ead/e24d067ec6...
Subsequently I compiled a formal paper titled "Proposed experiment for
detection of absolute motion" and submitted to Physics Essays (An
International Journal dedicated to fundamental questions in Physics)
for publication. After a detailed peer review, this paper has now been
published in this journal [http://www.physicsessays.com/]. The
abstract of this paper is reproduced below.

* * * * * * * * *"According to special theory of relativity, all motion is relative
and existence of any privileged or absolute inertial frame of
reference, which could be practically distinguished from all other
inertial frames, is ruled out. However, we may define an absolute or
universal reference frame as the one which is at rest with respect to
the center of mass of the universe and assume the speed c of
propagation of light to be an isotropic universal constant in that
frame. Any motion with respect to such a reference frame will be
called “absolute motion.” The proposed experiment establishes the
feasibility of detection of such an absolute motion by measuring the
up-link and down-link signal propagation times between two fixed
points on the surface of earth. With current technological
advancements in pulsed lasers, detectors, precision atomic clocks, and
computers, feasibility of the proposed *experiment has been confirmed..
Successful conduct of the proposed experiment will initiate a paradigm
shift in fundamental physics. ©2010 Physics Essays Publication"
Phys. Essays 23, 442 (2010)http://physicsessays.aip.org/getabs/...et?prog=normal...

* * * * *In brief, the proposed experiment involves measurement of to
and fro light propagation times between two fixed points on earth. Let
us consider two points A and B fixed on the surface of earth (at equal
gravitational potential) and aligned along east-west direction. Let
the separation distance AB be about 30 to 50 km. Position two
identical precision atomic clocks mid-way between A and B and mutually
synchronize them in close-by position. After synchronizing, shift the
two clocks to stations A and B by slow transport. Now as part of the
experiment, send a light pulse from A to B and record its time of
flight with the two clocks at A and B. Let this measured time of
flight be T_ab. Then send another light pulse from B to A and record
its time of flight with the two clocks. Let this measured time of
flight be T_ba. Repeat these to and fro time of flight measurements
for a period of 24 hours. Find the maximum difference in the to and
fro flight times, |T_ab-T_ba| over the test period.

As per SR (if the second postulate is true), this to and fro flight
time difference |T_ab-T_ba| must be of the order of zero (or a random
scatter of values within +/- 5 nanoseconds). On the other hand, if the
second postulate is not true, then the maximum difference in the to
and fro flight times, |T_ab-T_ba| is expected to be in the range of
about 200 nanoseconds.

* * * * * * * * *An estimated cost of the test equipment (including Cesium atomic
clocks and pulsed lasers) is within $40,000. The proposed experiment
can be conducted by many space agencies, research centers and academic
institutions provided they get motivated for undertaking this
challenging task. The proposed method of detecting absolute motion in
space is considered very simple but unique, the like of which has not
been conducted by anyone as yet. It is unique in the following
respects.
(a)There is no attempt to measure the one-way or two-way speed of
light.
(b)There is no need to measure the distance between the two fixed
points on the surface of earth for conducting this experiment.
(c)There is no dependence on the wave properties of light for
measuring any interference effects or fringe shifts. It does not
involve any reflection of waves from moving mirrors.
(d)For detecting absolute motion in space, we only need to measure the
up-link (T_ab) and down-link (T_ba) signal propagation times between
two locations on the surface of earth. It does not require the use of
any satellite or the GPS system.
(e)The result depends on the difference between T_ab and T_ba, due to
which the hardware delays and atmospheric signal propagation delays
get canceled out and do not influence the result. Commercially
available Cesium atomic clocks provide time measurement accuracy of
the order of about one nanosecond, which is sufficient for the conduct
of the proposed experiment.

* * * * *I am sure that whenever and whichever agency conducts the
proposed experiment, an absolute motion in the form of a unique
velocity vector of the solar system in the absolute space, will be
detected. I only wonder whether NASA or any other agency/institution
will come forward to conduct this experiment first.

G S Sandhuhttp://book.fundamentalphysics.info/

A paper entitled "Proposed and past experiments detecting absolute
motion"
is available in the following link:http://www.modelmechanics.org/npa17.pdf
Ken Seto- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dear Ken: My X, Y, and Z interferometer isn't "proposed" nor past
(and failed); it is present, working and successful! — NoEinstein —

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT), GSS
wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:28*pm, Surfer wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT), GSS

wrote:

In brief, the proposed experiment involves measurement of to
and fro light propagation times between two fixed points on earth.

A number of such experiments have been performed in the past. It
wouldn't hurt for more to be done.

The Roland De Witte 1991 Experiment (to the Memory of Roland De Witte)
Progress in Physics, 3, 60-65, 2006.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...6/PP-06-11.PDF

"....His results are in excellent agreement with the extensive data
from the Miller 1925/26 detection of absolute motion using a gas-mode
Michelson interferometer atop Mt.Wilson, California...."

Here is a paper which did not claim detection of absolute motion, but
graphs provided in the paper, appear to show such effects.

Test of the Isotropy of the One-Way Speed of Light using
Hydrogen-Maser Frequency Standards,
Krisher T.P., Maleki L., Lutes G.F., Primas L.E., Logan R.T., Anderson
J.D. and Will C.M.
Phys Rev D, 42, 731-734, 1990.

Here is a paper containing a diagram (Fig. 6) that graphically
compares the results of the above mentioned experiments and other
similar experiments, plotted against sidereal time.

Combining NASA/JPL One-Way Optical-Fiber Light-Speed Data with
Spacecraft Earth-Flyby Doppler-Shift Data to Characterise 3-Space Flow
Progress in Physics, 4, 50-64, 2009.http://www.ptep-online.com/index_fil...9/PP-19-05.PDF

The correlations suggest a common cause related to sideral time, which
would be consistent with absolute motion effects.

Has the mainstream Physics community accepted the above referred
results?

Not yet. But I don't think many will have read the above papers.

If so, the second postulate of SR should have been invalidated by now.

Personally, I think it has been invalidated.


As per Isaac (previous post), very many persons should have won the
Nobel Prize by now for detecting the absolute motion!!

On the other hand, if mainstream Physics community has not accepted
the above referred results, then could it be that they will never
accept the results of any experiment that points to the invalidity of
Relativity?

A few might be as committed to SR as that.

But to convince the majority, there is probably merely a need for
stronger evidence than the above.


-- Surfer

On 7/11/10 12:07 PM, NoEinstein wrote:
Dear GSS: I have already detected Earth's absolute speed and
direction using my first-generation X, Y, and Z interferometer.


What's the speed?

On Jul 11, 10:47 am, Surfer wrote:

If so, the second postulate of SR should have been invalidated by now.

Personally, I think it has been invalidated.

No one gives a **** about what you think, Peter