Universe itself is a black hole.

"namekuseijin" wrote in message
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On May 29, 2:42 am, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"namekuseijin" wrote in message

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On May 29, 1:49 am, "Mark Earnest" wrote:



"namekuseijin" wrote in message

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On May 28, 11:13 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message

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Mark Its Einstein thinking. I wish it was all mine. I can only add
to
the great theories of Einstein. He is very clever TreBert

OK, Bert, if it was what Einstein says, then I am sure his
mathematical
brilliance was just running away with him.

Either the line is straight or it isn't.

What could be simpler than that?

Nothing is simple except in math. All straight lines you'll ever
cross in this universe are really just tangential approximations of
curves.

You never run on a straight-line here on Earth -- it's curved after
all and at all points point to the center, thus warping surfaces even
though very slightly and not noticeable for small enough *tangents*.
Let alone out there, where you're always in orbit around some gravity
well...

Ever grab ordinary string by two ends and pull it tight?
That is a pretty good representation of a straight line: the shortest
distance between two points.

Exactly like I said, it's just a tangential approximation to a curve:
no matter how much it looks straight, you know gravity is pulling it
and making it a parable. It's never, never going to be a pure math
straight line.

**I'm sure a sufficiently taught segment of string cancels out the effect
of
gravity.

The shortest path between two points in this universe is always a
curve,

**Then you defy the very definition of a line.

Oh, lines do exist, yes. It's only that you'll never be able to walk
along one between any two points.

**We walk along lines all the time. At night, for example, the light from
nearby streetlamps guiding yourway arrives to you along a straight line.


You may ask that to anyone plotting
trajectories of rockets and so forth. Much more evident on larger
scales than everyday human ones, which is what you experience is
telling you...

**Trajectories these days are always curves, not lines.


even though in small enough scales it may look like a mathbook
straight-line.

**There is no mathbook straight-line.
There are just lines, and they exist all over nature.
The axis of a planet and a beam of light from a star, for two examples.

A beam of light will bend near very strong gravitational fields.

** Next clear night go outside and look at any star of your choice. You can
tell that it's light is coming all the way to you along a perfectly straight
line.
Go ahead, experience your first sighting of perfection.


Just
think of matter with actual mass trying to go between two points over
a straight-line and failing for not taking that force interfering with
their trajectories!

Simply not possible, though at small scales you may find it
reassuring.

**You still say straight lines are not straight.
That is all I was trying to point out.

Mark The greater the distance of the line the more it will be curved.
Gravity sees to it. Trebert

namek Well put could not have done better myself. Einstein gave us
curved space and mother nature loves round,and the rounder the better.
Nature is always trying to create that perfect circle. I have posted
many times when a perfect circle is achieved,and got some good email on
that theory all the way from U of Moscow go figure TreBert

Mark You are missing the overall point. Shorter the string the curve
not measurable,but long string no problem measuring that it shows
curving Mark quit when you you can. Your thinking is not relative
TreBert

Mark Short distance and slow speed do not change things very much,but
keep in mind even at 60mph your car foreshortens in the direction it is
going. Not measurable but still its reality. Its weight also became
greater but not measurable. Then we have the great powerful accelerators
and they get stuff moving very fast. 99.999999999 of c and at this speed
Einstein's theories are proven. Trebert

Mark Straight lines can be visualized as 100% straight,but reality is
they are all curved. Trebert

I don't know why I insist. I don't know if you're missing the point,
just stubborn or plainly trollish...

I'll try to be brief.

On May 29, 3:39*am, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
**We walk along lines all the time. *At night, for example, the light from
nearby streetlamps guiding yourway arrives to you along a straight line.

In your everyday small scale human experience, curves look like
straight lines. The gravitational force of Earth is too weak to bend
light too much, specially a beam of light travelling a miserable few
feet/meters.

*You may ask that to anyone plotting
trajectories of rockets and so forth. *Much more evident on larger
scales than everyday human ones, which is what you experience is
telling you...

**Trajectories these days are always curves, *not lines.

Exactly what I said. What are you missing?

A beam of light will bend near very strong gravitational fields.

** Next clear night go outside and look at any star of your choice. *You can
tell that it's light is coming all the way to you along a perfectly straight
line.
Go ahead, experience your first sighting of perfection.

Sorry to tell you, but as the light of a star that far away is only
hitting your eye now the star itself is alredy far off that position
in the sky. That beam of light goes mostly straight, yes, except when
passing near very strong gravitational fields, which bend its
trajectory. You only believe it's straight because you don't know by
how many gravitational wells that beam of light gone through before
hitting your eye.

**You still say straight lines are not straight.
That is all I was trying to point out.

Straight lines are only straight in a perfect, mathbook, Ptolomaic
universe, not this one.

I don't even need to go as far as Einstein complex transforms to show
you that: according to Newton, a body is supposed to maintain its
state of rest or constant velocity if no force is being applied to
it. It's the law of inertia, remember?

"The vis insita, or innate force of matter is a power of resisting, by
which every body, as much as in it lies, endeavors to preserve in its
present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forward
in a straight line."

So, in that case, the equation governing the motion of a body is a
simple 1 degree polynomial, resulting indeed in a straigh line graph.
In face of a force applying to a body, either accelerating or
desaccelerating it, the polynomial turns to degree 2, resulting in a
curve.

Sadly a setting in which there are no forces at all applying to a body
is an *idealized setting*: it doesn't correspond to reality, it
simply doesn't exist. Here on Earth there's friction and in space
there's always, always a gravitational pull from some body around, no
matter how weak. The result of motion here is always a polynomial
with degree beyond 1, meaning a curve, however slight it is...

Straight lines are a math abstraction, not a physical property, sorry.

On May 29, 7:56*am, (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
namek *Well put could not have done better myself.

thanks!

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
Mark The greater the distance of the line the more it will be curved.
Gravity sees to it. Trebert

Then it isn't, and never was, a line.

"namekuseijin" wrote in message
...
I don't know why I insist. I don't know if you're missing the point,
just stubborn or plainly trollish...

**Bucking the system isn't being trollish...it is plain survival,
for me.


I'll try to be brief.

On May 29, 3:39 am, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
**We walk along lines all the time. At night, for example, the light from
nearby streetlamps guiding yourway arrives to you along a straight line.

In your everyday small scale human experience, curves look like
straight lines. The gravitational force of Earth is too weak to bend
light too much, specially a beam of light travelling a miserable few
feet/meters.

**The gravity of Earth only appears to be bending the straight line of light
from the star. It isn't truly bending it at all. As you can tell when you
are looking at the star.

**Same thing with motion. The star only appears to be a little off from
where it actually is. But you are seeing it where it actually is.

**Hint: seeing is a lot more then simply light hitting the retina.
It involves comprehending.

**iow: your mind processes the stars into their correct positions.


You may ask that to anyone plotting
trajectories of rockets and so forth. Much more evident on larger
scales than everyday human ones, which is what you experience is
telling you...

**Trajectories these days are always curves, not lines.

Exactly what I said. What are you missing?

**Nothing. Why did you bring it up?



A beam of light will bend near very strong gravitational fields.

** Next clear night go outside and look at any star of your choice. You
can
tell that it's light is coming all the way to you along a perfectly
straight
line.
Go ahead, experience your first sighting of perfection.

Sorry to tell you, but as the light of a star that far away is only
hitting your eye now the star itself is alredy far off that position
in the sky. That beam of light goes mostly straight, yes, except when
passing near very strong gravitational fields, which bend its
trajectory. You only believe it's straight because you don't know by
how many gravitational wells that beam of light gone through before
hitting your eye.

**You still say straight lines are not straight.
That is all I was trying to point out.

Straight lines are only straight in a perfect, mathbook, Ptolomaic
universe, not this one.

**There is nothing imperfect about this universe.
It is our observations and understanding of it that are imperfect.


I don't even need to go as far as Einstein complex transforms to show
you that: according to Newton, a body is supposed to maintain its
state of rest or constant velocity if no force is being applied to
it. It's the law of inertia, remember?

"The vis insita, or innate force of matter is a power of resisting, by
which every body, as much as in it lies, endeavors to preserve in its
present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forward
in a straight line."

So, in that case, the equation governing the motion of a body is a
simple 1 degree polynomial, resulting indeed in a straigh line graph.
In face of a force applying to a body, either accelerating or
desaccelerating it, the polynomial turns to degree 2, resulting in a
curve.

Sadly a setting in which there are no forces at all applying to a body
is an *idealized setting*: it doesn't correspond to reality, it
simply doesn't exist. Here on Earth there's friction and in space
there's always, always a gravitational pull from some body around, no
matter how weak. The result of motion here is always a polynomial
with degree beyond 1, meaning a curve, however slight it is...

Straight lines are a math abstraction, not a physical property, sorry.

**Get your head out of the books long enough to breathe, sir.
Those books aren't exactly sacred texts, you know.
And if they were, scientists would reject them for that very reason.