Massacre In Gaza - Black Saturday

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 30 Dec 2008, 19:57, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: If you don't want them to come and kill you, stop shooting rockets at
: them.
:
:
:What about the continued restrictions in BOTH the West Bank and Gaza?
:

What about them? Both the West Bank and Gaza are under the control of
the Palestinian Authority. If you have problems with restrictions in
either area, take it up with them.


: --
: "Before you embark on a journey of revenge dig two graves."
: * * * * * * * * * * * -- Confucius
:
:Confucius - him very wise man.
:

Ian Parker - him very confused man.

:
:The war in Gaza is a product of
:military logic on both sides. Mariam did not mention rockets.
:

Funny how that works, isn't it? Don't mention that they've been
firing rockets out of Gaza for months.

:
:Neither
f you have mentioned security restrictions and collective punishment.
:Security is more often than not to do with collective punishment as
:much as real safety.
:

Nuts.

:
:Israel wants to put pressure on the Palestinians, particulaly Hamas
:although the sexcurity restrictions apply to Fatah too. Israel feels
:that collective punishment will make the Palestinians more reasonable.
:This flies in the fact of the evidence which tells us that every time
:Palestinians are rendered more extreme and rally round Hamas.
:

Hint: People have no innate right to move from one country to
another. Hence, Palestinians have no innate right to move from the
Palestinian Authority to Israel.

Get over it.

:
:The fact that no WEST BANK settlement has been demplished, ...
:

Demplished?

:
:... the fact
:that West Bankers cannot freely move around their country -
:

Sure they can. They can go anywhere in THEIR country they want to.
What they can't do is go on other peoples' property.

:
:... that
:despite Mahmood Abbas' moderations surely indicates that it is Hamas
:that gets the results. Hamas is the organizaton we should follow.
:

If there's a way to self inflict, the Palestinian people will do it.
The preceding is just another one of those ways.

:
:The situation is tragic - on both sides. It also shows that decades of
:interest by the US and others have been unsuccessful and the situation
:is worse that it ever was. Israel will would Hamas. Hamas will be back
:with longer range rockets.
:

"Israel will would Hamas"?

:
ARPA is working on AI. What will ultimately happen is that DARPAs AI
:helicopter, which can hand on a window sill, will get into the hands
f Hamas. It will be a consumer item since all the component parts
:will be inexpensive. If this happens Israel will be able to hold on to
:its principal bases but the country will become unlivable in for
:civilians. So too will Palestine, but the Palestinians are more used
:to it.
:
ARPA is stupid to go ahead with AI. It is worried about Iran
:acquiring nuclear weapons, yet the real danger is "consumer" type
:weapons. Weapons in a Christmas (or Eid) stocking. Nuclear weapons
:require major industry for their production. AI does not.
:

And you had to veer off into your loony positions on AI again...


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

They are going to get longer range weapons. That is inevitable. GPS
based model aircraft can readily be built by amateurs. Remember my
warning.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:
:
:They are going to get longer range weapons. That is inevitable. GPS
:based model aircraft can readily be built by amateurs. Remember my
:warning.
:

Your threat, you mean?


--
"The odds get even - You blame the game.
The odds get even - The stakes are the same.
You bet your life."
-- "You Bet Your Life", Rush

On 3 Jan, 11:38, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Ian Parker wrote:

:
:They are going to get longer range weapons. That is inevitable. GPS
:based model aircraft can readily be built by amateurs. Remember my
:warning.
:

Your threat, you mean?

http://www.mwrf.com/Articles/ArticleID/5471/5471.html
http://www.airfieldmodels.com/faq/mo...ol_systems.htm

I will fill in some more details. A little bit of ingenuity is
required. I feel the Palestinians should be thinking in terms of a
small motorcycle or lawnmower (50cc) engine. This will give a target
weight of about 25-50Kg.

The GPS chip is designed for integration into a computer system. They
are consumer items and can be bought cheaply in bulk.

Building such a thing should be well within the capability of the
entusiastic hobbist. Basically you have to replace the normal radio
control system with a computer controlled system. Basically you need
to write a C program wnd embed it into your control system.
Development systems are available which will enable you to test it
out. Everyone is willing to sell you kits. More details?

You have succeeded in putting my back absolutely up. You have used the
word yet again. This is what follows. More details of the design could
follow next. I could also translate everything into Arabic. I would
start off by using Google Translate and then look at the translation
with my own computer dictionary.

I was talking to a local woman just today. She had an almightly
argument with a relative who was at Sandhurst. The British seem to be
following the Americans in terms of indoctrination. She confirmed
everything I was ever saying. I don't honestly know now whose side I
am on. I get harrowing pictures on the television of dead Palestinans.
OK they should not have been firing rockets, neither should Israel
have attempted to strangle them during the cease fire. Neither should
there be settlements or check points in the West Bank. If that had
been the case the cease fire would have held.

I am certainly not on your side. I am cetainly on the side of Mrs.
Stevens and all the other victims of American aggression and
incometance. You first of all say the US has no biological weapons,
then no one, or at any rate no one of any importance was killed. You
attempt to justify the shabby treatment meeted out to those like Mrs
Stevens.

I hope the Palestinations do get the where with all to strike back
hard.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:
:
:You have succeeded in putting my back absolutely up.
:

Good. Would you now kindly have a towering snit and stalk off in high
dudgeon?

:
:You have used the word yet again.
:

If you don't like being called loony, stop acting like a loon.

:
:I hope the Palestinations do get the where with all to strike back
:hard.
:

And I hope you get the visit you so richly deserve...


--
"We need to KILL them. We should kill the people who did this and
then find the ones who sent them. Kill the people who did it,
the people who planned it, and everybody that was happy about it.
-- Josh, "The West Wing"

On Jan 3, 3:50*am, Ian Parker wrote:
They are going to get longer range weapons. That is inevitable. GPS
based model aircraft can readily be built by amateurs. Remember my
warning.

Welcome back, selective availability.

What is clearly needed is to make sure they can't get their hands on
equipment to grow deadly bacteria, firearms, explosives, flammable
substances, or sharp pointy things. Don't wait; avoid the rush:
require the entire Islamic world to cooperate in being occupied so as
to allow this to be achieved - with being nuked the other option.

It hasn't come to this yet, but, really, it's hardly likely that the
United States will sit still for being the target of attacks to the
extent that Israel has had to endure.

John Savard

On Jan 3, 12:28*pm, Ian Parker wrote:

I hope the Palestinations do get the where with all to strike back
hard.

I regret that the Palestinians are suffering. But their only hope is
that Hamas and anyone else among them who thinks to raise a hand in
violence against Israel - or the United States, or any other part of
the civilized, democratic world - either stops what they are doing, or
*is* stopped, once and for all.

At the end of the day, the Israeli people, as well as the American
people, and the peoples of Europe, are going to be able to take for
granted the kind of peace and security that everyone else took for
granted before September 11, 2001. How much of the Islamic world is
left when this is achieved - is up to the Islamic world.

There are no two ways about it. There will be NO concessions extorted
by force from the Western world.

We have no desire to oppress Muslims if they are willing to live in
peace with us; so, when it becomes possible for a Palestinian state to
exist, not as a menace to Israel, or a staging area for terrorists,
but as a peaceful home for the Palestinians, in which they can work
and build, it will come into existence quickly.

But if the terrorists think their fanaticism, their ruthlessness,
their disregard for their own deaths gives them an advantage, they
must meet an iron determination from their foes. As for collateral
damage, if we have the kind of cooperation that lets us operate
against the terrorists at close range, it will be easier to avoid.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote:

:On Jan 3, 12:28*pm, Ian Parker wrote:
:
: I hope the Palestinations do get the where with all to strike back
: hard.
:
:I regret that the Palestinians are suffering. But their only hope is
:that Hamas and anyone else among them who thinks to raise a hand in
:violence against Israel - or the United States, or any other part of
:the civilized, democratic world - either stops what they are doing, or
:*is* stopped, once and for all.
:
:At the end of the day, the Israeli people, as well as the American
eople, and the peoples of Europe, are going to be able to take for
:granted the kind of peace and security that everyone else took for
:granted before September 11, 2001. How much of the Islamic world is
:left when this is achieved - is up to the Islamic world.
:
:There are no two ways about it. There will be NO concessions extorted
:by force from the Western world.
:
:We have no desire to oppress Muslims if they are willing to live in
eace with us; so, when it becomes possible for a Palestinian state to
:exist, not as a menace to Israel, or a staging area for terrorists,
:but as a peaceful home for the Palestinians, in which they can work
:and build, it will come into existence quickly.
:
:But if the terrorists think their fanaticism, their ruthlessness,
:their disregard for their own deaths gives them an advantage, they
:must meet an iron determination from their foes. As for collateral
:damage, if we have the kind of cooperation that lets us operate
:against the terrorists at close range, it will be easier to avoid.
:

And thus it turns out that Osama bin Laden has certainly been no
friend to the Palestinian people. I don't know how many of you
remember it, but immediately prior to 9/11 there was a lot of pressure
from the United States against what were viewed as 'harsh' methods
being employed by Israel. Then the World Trade Center came down and
the American view of things changed radically.

So the Palestinians can thank Osama bin Laden for the current world
view of Israeli actions toward Arabs.


--
You are
What you do
When it counts.

On 4 Jan, 08:28, Quadibloc wrote:
On Jan 3, 3:50*am, Ian Parker wrote:

They are going to get longer range weapons. That is inevitable. GPS
based model aircraft can readily be built by amateurs. Remember my
warning.

Welcome back, selective availability.

What is clearly needed is to make sure they can't get their hands on
equipment to grow deadly bacteria, firearms, explosives, flammable
substances, or sharp pointy things. Don't wait; avoid the rush:
require the entire Islamic world to cooperate in being occupied so as
to allow this to be achieved - with being nuked the other option.

It hasn't come to this yet, but, really, it's hardly likely that the
United States will sit still for being the target of attacks to the
extent that Israel has had to endure.

John Savard

Yes, but you have to look at the whole history. Israel cut off all
supplies to Gaza for a long time. The West Bank is still subject to
considerable restrictions. There is a saying that one man's terrorist
is another man's freedom fighter. The war in Gaza is a war of
liberation. US propaganda has it as being the result of Islamic
extremism. Again any people treated in the way Israel has treated the
Palestinians would have reacted in an identical way.

If you puit a large number of people in what is essentially a prison
it is inevitable that rockets etc. are going to arrive.

As far as biogogical attacks is concerned the only biological attack
was the United States on the United States. Anyway, if you are afraid
of developments the remedy is not to create prisons like Gaza. I don't
honestly know the answer. Gaza is the result of long term policies of
both the Arab world and Isreal. Gaza was I think originally a refugee
camp for Palestinians in Egypt. Israel them won the 6 day war.
Subsequently Sinai was returned to Egypt but the Egyptians did not
want Gaza. Since then it has been a festering sore.

The basic truth that no one has been able to do anything about it. At
the time of the 6 day war Gaza was soluble, it is insoluble (probably)
today.

A worry to Israel is the inceasing range and technological
sophistication of explosive delivery vehicles. I have only looked
superficially at model aircraft and GPS. In the absence of a
settlement ranges are going to increse from a few kilometers of the
Katushas to hundreds of kilometers. I don't think there is anything
effective that can be done to prevent this.

If I were an Israeli I would be thinking seriously about the long term
future. It seems clear that given another 10 years we will be talking
about 200km and 10m CEP. A cruise missle would be 1000km or more.
Under these circumances Israel will hold its key air bases but life
for the civilian population will become impossible. It would be
inpossible to maintain security short of wiping the whole Middle East
out in a nuclear attack.

As far as the US is comcerned its vulnerabilty to attack will depend
on how far it is identified with the Israeli cause. The only attack so
far has been the US on the US. The Paslestinians have shown no
inclination to strike at wider targets. Al-Qaida is of course another
matter. The fact of the matter though is that wheras the Palestinians
enjoy considerable sympathy in the Arab world AQ does not.

What should Obama and Hillary do? Damn all, save the kerosene.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker , meandering all over the place,
wrote:
:
:Yes, but you have to look at the whole history. Israel cut off all
:supplies to Gaza for a long time.
:

How'd they do that? Israel didn't control Gaza "for a long time". It
spent most of its history under Egyptian control, then was relatively
briefly under Israeli control, then it was turned over to the
Palestinian authority. Israel cannot "cut off all supplies to Gaza"
without a lot of Egyptian cooperation.

:
:The West Bank is still subject to
:considerable restrictions.
:

Most of which amount to "You can't go into Jewish settlements and kill
them" and "You have no innate right to come work in Israel".

:
:There is a saying that one man's terrorist
:is another man's freedom fighter.
:

But only idiots and terrorists use it. If your chosen targets are
women and children, you are a terrorist. If your chosen targets are
the other side's trigger-pullers and leadership, then you are a
freedom fighter.

It's quite simple to everyone but terrorists and their sympathizers.

:
:The war in Gaza is a war of liberation.
:

Horse manure. The war in Gaza is a police action against a nest of
vermin.

:
:US propaganda has it as being the result of Islamic
:extremism.
:

Reality returns the same result.

:
:Again any people treated in the way Israel has treated the
:Palestinians would have reacted in an identical way.
:

Any people who spend their time trying to murder random women and
children deserve what they get.

:
:snip
:
:A worry to Israel is the inceasing range and technological
:sophistication of explosive delivery vehicles. I have only looked
:superficially at model aircraft and GPS.
:

You only ever look superficially at EVERYTHING, Ian. Then you try to
lecture everyone else on it. This pattern on your part is why you are
frequently greeted with such derision.

:
:In the absence of a
:settlement ranges are going to increse from a few kilometers of the
:Katushas to hundreds of kilometers. I don't think there is anything
:effective that can be done to prevent this.
:

Well, nothing effective other than reality.

:
:If I were an Israeli I would be thinking seriously about the long term
:future.
:

They seem to be. It's why they're once again trying to teach the
lesson that sniping at them at random has consequences.

:
:It seems clear that given another 10 years we will be talking
:about 200km and 10m CEP.
:

Ian, why is it that every time something "seems clear" to you that
what follows is absolute ********?

:
:A cruise missle would be 1000km or more.
:

Very few cruise missiles exhibit such range.

:
:Under these circumances Israel will hold its key air bases but life
:for the civilian population will become impossible. It would be
:inpossible to maintain security short of wiping the whole Middle East
ut in a nuclear attack.
:

Poppycock!

:
:As far as the US is comcerned its vulnerabilty to attack will depend
n how far it is identified with the Israeli cause.
:

More utter ********.

:
:The only attack so
:far has been the US on the US.
:

The World Trade Center just spontaneously combusted, then?

:
:The Paslestinians have shown no
:inclination to strike at wider targets.
:

Mostly because they lack capability.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn