Russian plans - A New space race?

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:31:33 -0500, J Waggoner
wrote:



Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again

Doesn't look likely. Despite their booming economy, funding for space
is still pathetically low. For now, they're still dreaming about major
expansion of their side of ISS.

ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

They're not cut out, they're just not going to be allowed in the
critical path again. This isn't anti-Russian... the Europeans and
Japanese are in the same boat.

That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

The Russians don't have a lab on ISS yet, so there's not a lot for
them to do besides the nuts and bolts jobs, like fixing toilets, and
the ocassional Soyuz and Progress flights. And that's entirely their
fault, no one else's. Their lab (the only one of three originally
planned that is still in the works) is scheduled to fly in 2010, by
last schedule. Don't hold your breath.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

Nope. The Chinese don't like the Russians any more than the rest of
the world does. America has a black eye for now because of Iraq (time
will tell if that remains the case) but the world still wants to do
business with America, and despite the angry shouts and protests,
there is no shortage of partners for American space missions, i.e.,
Jason 2/OSTM or Phoenix. Russia is generally only a partner because
they provide cheap launches and have a few niche markets to
themselves.

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

The new investments are nowhere in sight. Sure, we have lots of pretty
pictures of the next vehicle that's gonna be "the greatest thing since
sliced bread", but we've been seeing this for 20 years at least (the
most recent was Kliper, which the Russia fans were telling us was
going to be wonderful and would show up Orion. They get real quiet
when asked about Kliper these days.) I'll believe it when I see it.

Brian

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:12:37 -0500, OM
wrote:


...You forgot the mockups. They made some nice mockups.

Yep, I can't wait to hop on the next Boeing Sonic Cruiser to go catch
my flight on a Angara/Kliper...

Brian

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:28:20 -0500, J Waggoner
wrote:

The Mockup yes. last time I looked the Buran was launched on top of
something.

It was, the last Energia. That was 1988.

Both are now dead and gone.

Brian

"J Waggoner" wrote in message
...


Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

I've heard many Russians comment that the anti-Russian moon move has
rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

Energia is likely as dead as Saturn V. It only flew twice, and was scrapped
long ago when the Russian economy collapsed upon itself.

Still, it's extremely unlikely that the US would rely on the Russians to
launch (nearly) everything needed for a lunar mission on Energia.

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

I don't think the US can count on the Russians for much of anything. We'll
be lucky if they can ramp up the production of Soyuz and Progress capsules
to support the full ISS crew size of six.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

Jeff Findley formuleerde de vraag :
"J Waggoner" wrote in message
...


Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

I've heard many Russians comment that the anti-Russian moon move has
rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

Energia is likely as dead as Saturn V. It only flew twice, and was scrapped
long ago when the Russian economy collapsed upon itself.

Still, it's extremely unlikely that the US would rely on the Russians to
launch (nearly) everything needed for a lunar mission on Energia.

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

I don't think the US can count on the Russians for much of anything. We'll
be lucky if they can ramp up the production of Soyuz and Progress capsules to
support the full ISS crew size of six.

Jeff

Looking at your comments, I think the European Ariane 5 can make a good
chance....

You all seem to think that Putin is somehow a leader for peace or
something. Once China gets their program going in a big way
I look to see Russian cooperation on a lunar mission in the next
decade. The Europeans maybe able to come up with an Orion
type craft, but I haven't seen anything concrete either.
Hopefully the decision to end shuttle will be reversed by the next
administration. It could happen. Probably won't. but could.

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:56:39 +0200, André, PE1PQX
wrote:

Jeff Findley formuleerde de vraag :
"J Waggoner" wrote in message
...


Since the decision for reasons not announced but known to anyone with
a slight political science inclination, i.e., and increasingly hostile
and anti-American, anti-NATO stance adopted by the Putin controlled
Junta that now rules Russia, are we to understand that Russia may be
planning to either build their own station again ala Mir style or
could even revive and improved their long dead Moon program since
being "cut out" of the new Nasa initiative.

I've heard many Russians comment that the anti-Russian moon move has
rekindled some competition and may have resulted in the "coolness" on
station. That being very little if any interaction with the Russian
segment, curtailing of Russian participation of silly and numberless
press conferences which I don't disagree with at all.

Energia seems a logical alternative to the Ares V rocket which is the
obvious heavy lift alternative vehicle hidden in the LM booster and
TLI dual use. Any chance the Russians and Chinese may partner to
beat us back to the Moon?

Energia is likely as dead as Saturn V. It only flew twice, and was scrapped
long ago when the Russian economy collapsed upon itself.

Still, it's extremely unlikely that the US would rely on the Russians to
launch (nearly) everything needed for a lunar mission on Energia.

All these are intended as hypothetical and will depend a lot on the
Putin controlled govt. But with the newer investments in the Russian
military can space be far behind? Me thinks not Comrades..

I don't think the US can count on the Russians for much of anything. We'll
be lucky if they can ramp up the production of Soyuz and Progress capsules to
support the full ISS crew size of six.

Jeff

Looking at your comments, I think the European Ariane 5 can make a good
chance....

"André, PE1PQX" wrote in message
...
Looking at your comments, I think the European Ariane 5 can make a good
chance....

Technically, yes, politically, no. The US would use Delta IV Heavies and
Atlas V Heavies before they'd launch US payloads on a foreign launcher.

The reason that NASA is pushing Ares I and Ares V is because politically,
it's good to preserve some shuttle jobs. Well, that and Griffin is wearing
blinders and won't listen to any other alternatives.

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

"Jeff Findley" wrote:


"André, PE1PQX" wrote in message
...
Looking at your comments, I think the European Ariane 5 can make a good
chance....

Technically, yes, politically, no. The US would use Delta IV Heavies and
Atlas V Heavies before they'd launch US payloads on a foreign launcher.

The reason that NASA is pushing Ares I and Ares V is because politically,
it's good to preserve some shuttle jobs. Well, that and Griffin is wearing
blinders and won't listen to any other alternatives.

Well, that and Congress requires NASA to push those boosters and
preserve those jobs. By law Griffin isn't allowed to entertain
alternatives.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:35:43 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:


Well, that and Congress requires NASA to push those boosters and
preserve those jobs. By law Griffin isn't allowed to entertain
alternatives.

That doesn't rule out a DIRECT type system, though, and DIRECT is
looking more and more attractive with every redesign and upsizing of
the Ares family.

Brian

Brian Thorn wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:35:43 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

Well, that and Congress requires NASA to push those boosters and
preserve those jobs. By law Griffin isn't allowed to entertain
alternatives.

That doesn't rule out a DIRECT type system, though, and DIRECT is
looking more and more attractive with every redesign and upsizing of
the Ares family.

And what will look more attractive with every redesign and upsizing of
DIRECT?

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL