If Liberty bells hatch hadnt blown?

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:34:58 -0500, "Jim Davis"
wrote:


"OM" wrote...

1) The deaths of Eliot See & Charlie Bassett, which bumped Neil up
from backup to prime crew for G8, and shuffled around the rest of the
Gemini rotation, and put Buzz into a prime crew spot.

The deaths of See and Bassett bumped Stafford and Cernan from G9
backup to G9 prime. It had no effect on G8 assignments. On the other hand,
Lovell and Aldrin moved from G10 backup to G9 backup placing them in line
for G12 prime.

....I stand corrected, and claim mea culprit due to being distracted by
telemarketer calls while I was composing that post. Five of them in a
10 minute period will distract anyone to error.

Especially when three of them are not only automated from three
different companies, they're using the *same* spokespuppet is
supplying the voice under different names...


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

On 21 Aug 2003 23:35:00 GMT, (MasterShrink)
wrote:

3) The delay in the LM, which resulted in A8 & A9 being switched, A8
being redefined totally, and the resulting rotation that up to that
point pretty much had Pete Conrad and CC Williams in line for the
first landing attempt.

That swap actually occured after C.C. died and was replaced by Al Bean.

....You miss the point. Had A8 & A9 not been switched - and had CC not
augered - the rotation as it was shaping up would have put both of
them on the first landing attempt.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

In article ,
(Hallerb) wrote:

And Apollo wouldnt of adopted the hard to open hatch that doomed apollo
one, Gus and the crew would of got out OK, perhaps a bit singed, from
the fire. Then who would of been first man on the moon?

Let's make the following assumptions:

- There is substantially the same redesign of Apollo as in our timeline,
similarly delaying the next manned Apollo until late 1968.

- Lunar Module development also follows the same path as in OTL, with the
first man-rated LM available for flight in early 1969.

- None of the Apollo 1 crew are seriously injured and are thus available
for future flights.

It seems to me that the sequence of flights would have gone pretty much
the same as in OTL. There would have been a C mission flown in late 1968,
a C-prime mission to lunar orbit at the end of 1968, and so on with a
landing in mid-1969. As to who would have flown them, it depends if the
Apollo 1 crew would have been rescheduled onto the first Block II flight,
or if an alternate crew flew.

If the former, then I cannot see that Grissom would have been CDR of the
first landing. He would have had to cycle from commanding an LEO checkout
in late 1968 straight to command of the first landing only four flights
and nine months later. Now, if Apollo 1 had flown on schedule, then
although there would not in all likelihood have been any more flights than
this, there would have been a two and a half year interval, which is a
more credible amount of time for Grissom to train for commanding a landing
mission. But not nine months.

If, though, Grissom had been taken off the C mission (flown by the Apollo
1 backups but in late 1968, as in OTL) then he could well have been
assigned to backup command of either the D or E missions, putting him in
line to command either the first or second actual landing. Slayton is on
record as saying that had Grissom lived he would have been the first man
on the moon. It is very tempting to conclude that as the compressed
timescale for the flights became clear, Slayton would have taken Grisson
off the C mission (and probably given it to the backup crew as actually
happened) and put him into a position where he could be nominated to
command the first landing.

What isn't clear is what would have happened to White and Chaffee. White,
as an astronaut with flight experience, could well have been named as CMP
for a later mission. However, Slayton states that Chaffee was one of the
'weaker' astronauts in his group (although this is of course a relative
term) and he was named to Apollo 1, initially alongside Eisele, to "try
him out" on a relatively undemanding flight. I can see him either being
named as LMP for a later mission or maybe moving straight to Apollo
Applications.

One interesting thought: what if Slayton had assigned Grissom to backup
command of the D mission on the assumption that there was a strong chance
that this would rotate him to command of the likely first landing? Now,
what would have happened when a combination of LEM delays and the prospect
of a manned Zond mission round the moon led to the plan to swap the D and
E mission and fly the latter as a LM-less C-prime mission to lunar orbit?
In OTL, the crews and their backups were swapped with the missions, which
is why Conrad (originally backup CDR for Apollo 8, then backup CDR for
Apollo 9) ended up flying Apollo 12. If there was a Master Plan for
Grissom to command Apollo 11 though (by then a strong but not certain
candidate for First Landing), might there have been a temptation not to
swap the crews? We might have ended up with the following sequence:

Apollo 7: Schirra/Eisele/Cunningham, backups Stafford/Young/Cernan

Apollo 8: McDivitt/Scott/Schweickart, backups Grissom/White/?

Apollo 9: Borman/Lovell/Anders, backups Armstrong/Aldrin/Haise

Now, does Cooper even get a backup CDR slot? It's hard to avoid the view
that Slayton was using him to fill a hole that wouldn't have been there
with Grissom in the rotation. Ditto Eisele, but what about Mitchell? I
wonder if he might have been named straight to the Apollo 8 backup crew,
so the above becomes:

Apollo 7: Schirra/Eisele/Cunningham, backups Stafford/Young/Cernan

Apollo 8: McDivitt/Scott/Schweickart, backups Grissom/White/Mitchell

Apollo 9: Borman/Lovell/Anders, backups Armstrong/Aldrin/Haise

Apollo 10: Stafford/Young/Cernan, backups Conrad/Gordon/Bean

Apollo 11: Grissom/White/Mitchell, backups Scott/?/?

Apollo 12: Armstrong/Collins/Aldrin, backups Lovell/?/?

Apollo 13: Conrad/Gordon/Bean, backups Young/?/?

And now, what about Shepard? If he comes in for A14, he either displaces
Scott, or stretches the rotation by an extra mission.

Apollo 14: Shepard/?/?, backups White/?/?

Apollo 15: Scott/?/?

Apollo 16: Young/?/?

Apollo 17: White/?/?

This all gets *extremely* conjectural, and I haven't so far tried to guess
who lets into the CMP and LMP slots from the Apollo 11 backups onwards.
But it is I think a credible idea of the sequence of CDRs if Grissom had
lived.

--
Simon Bradshaw
http://www.cix.co.uk/~sjbradshaw
*** The Science Fiction Foundation ***
http://www.sf-foundation.org

Simon Bradshaw Wrote:
(be advised...lot's of snipage)

Now, if Apollo 1 had flown on schedule, then
although there would not in all likelihood have been any more flights than
this, there would have been a two and a half year interval, which is a
more credible amount of time for Grissom to train for commanding a landing
mission. But not nine months.

Mind you...Deke was willing to break rotation for the first landing.

If Grissom had flown the C-Mission in the Fall of 1968 Slayton would have
probably removed him from the flight rotation temporarily, keeping him on hold
for the landing flight.

He might have simply bumped whoever was the backup commander for Apollo 8 when
it came time to assign a prime crew for 11 and replaced him with Grissom.

Keep in mind also Slayton strongly considered giving Frank Borman's Apollo 8
crew Apollo 11 as well. He figured since they had done an orbital mission they
would now just need to focus on landing proceedures. However since Borman was
retiring after 8 he stuck with the rotation and assigned Armstrong, Collins and
Aldrin to 11.

This all gets *extremely* conjectural, and I haven't so far tried to guess
who lets into the CMP and LMP slots from the Apollo 11 backups onwards.
But it is I think a credible idea of the sequence of CDRs if Grissom had
lived.


It really is a pain in the neck to figure out what crews after the landing
would have been had Deke broken rotation and put Grissom on the crew. For one
thing, if Grissom survived, the Schirra, Eisele, Cunningham would have done
basically nothing...Wally probably would have moved on, never getting an Apollo
flight. Eisele and Cunningham might have landed slots on later landing mission.
Or on an outside chance, considered for Apollo 8 (since they had focused on a
solo-CSM flight they could be contenders). Heck, Eisele's work ethic went
downhill after he re-married so he might have NEVER flown.

Armstrong and Aldrin would have flown a later mission, either together or
seperatly since they weren't put on an Apollo crew till after the fire. And a
number of the Group 5 guys would not have gotten seats on Apollo flights and
after Skylab and ASTP a few more in addition to Engle, McCandless and Lind
would still have never flown and have to wait for the Shuttle.

Also, if the 204 crew survived then Deke's rotation for Apollo would not be:
backup crew, skip two, prime crew...but backup crew, skip one, prime crew.
Schirra's crew were not in line for the dress-rehersal, nor the first landing
attempt because the CMP, Eisele had no flight experience, so either Stafford or
Conrad's crew would get that mission after backing up the second Apollo flight.

-A.L.

Andrew Gray wrote:
In article , OM wrote:

That swap actually occured after C.C. died and was replaced by Al
Bean.

...You miss the point. Had A8 & A9 not been switched - and had CC not
augered - the rotation as it was shaping up would have put both of
them on the first landing attempt.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but would CC have flown? I find it odd,
in retrospect, that for the first landing they'd take a rookie... not
that it's really significant, but I'm sure I saw a comment somewhere
about an all-vet crew being a concious choice.

Prior to Apollo 13 Deke wouldn't pick a rookie as CMP. But I believe you're
right that the crews for 10 and 11 were deliberately chosen with all-veteran
astronauts.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God"

Prior to Apollo 13 Deke wouldn't pick a rookie as CMP. But I believe you're
right that the crews for 10 and 11 were deliberately chosen with all-veteran
astronauts.

You realize that prior to the Apollo 8 and 9 swap the Apollo 11 crew could have
been Conrad, Gordon and Bean...the early Apollo crews were largely determined
by who rotated out of Gemini when.

-A.L.

Terry Schanno wrote in message ...
Hallerb wrote:
And Apollo wouldnt of adopted the hard to open hatch that doomed apollo one,
Gus and the crew would of got out OK, perhaps a bit singed, from the fire. Then
who would of been first man on the moon?

Didn't Gus get a bit screwed in rotations somewhere due to the hatch
incident? Would he have still be CDR for Apollo 1 if he hadn't blown the
hatch (or had it blow, whichever)

i don't think so. if you've run the mercury program and the
gemini program, flown the first spacecraft (GT-3), and you are making
the first apollo flight and told you will be the first to have a shot
at walking on the moon, it might make sense if you were sniffing glue.
dad was the leading edge of the program. **** on t. wolf and mosley.

(MasterShrink) wrote in message ...
Didn't Gus get a bit screwed in rotations somewhere due to the hatch
incident? Would he have still be CDR for Apollo 1 if he hadn't blown the
hatch (or had it blow, whichever)

Not really. Grissom had been originally slated for the long duration Gemini
mission (what became Gemini 7) because he had spent such a great deal of time
working at McDonnel on Gemini, Deke Slayton figured he knew the craft very well
and could tought out any problems that may crop up on a 14 day flight.

When Shepard was removed from flight status (and any consideration for
commanding Gemini 3), Grissom was bumped up.

What I find interesting is when discussing the Apollo 1 crew assignments in his
book, Slayton mentions his first choice would have been Al Shepard had he not
been grounded, since he was not an option Grissom recieved the command.

There is an interesting what-if scenario. Shepard moving to Apollo 1 after GT
3...Schirra would probably still first command the cancelled Apollo 205 then
become Shepard's backup. Grissom could have ended up with either with the first
lunar module flight or maybe what became Apollo 8.

Of course there is the fire which would then have claimed Shepard...

-A.L.

what you don't understand is that a. shepard was dogging the
work assignments with an operable ear problem. he could have had the
operation, but was playing the "christian science" game. that's a
fact.

OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote in message . ..
On 21 Aug 2003 16:54:47 GMT, (MasterShrink)
wrote:

There is an interesting what-if scenario. Shepard moving to Apollo 1 after GT
3...Schirra would probably still first command the cancelled Apollo 205 then
become Shepard's backup. Grissom could have ended up with either with the first
lunar module flight or maybe what became Apollo 8.

Of course there is the fire which would then have claimed Shepard...

...Possibly not. Consider the fact that we've seen "Smilin' Al" could
be an even more adamant ******* than "Gruffy Old Gus", I've felt for
quite some time that Al would have gone quite a bit further up the
chain at NAA and, while probably never delving into the Pure O2 issue,
would have surely gotten some if not most of the sloppy workmanship
issues settled before the "plugs out" test. And, while there's no
arguing that Pure O2 at 16.5 PSI is a ticking bomb waiting to go off,
if there's no ignition source the danger is minimized.

No fire, no deaths, no delay in program, and the first landing is
conducted by the crew of Apollo 5, 6 or 7, flying a Block II which was
being built anyway.


OM

you don't have a clue mosley.

OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:07:55 -0400, RDG wrote:

The sad reality is that the Apollo 1 fire extended the timeline making Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, the
first men to land on lunar soil.

...Actually, there are three major events that contribute to Neil &
Buzz getting the first landing spot:

0) To a lesser extent, the death of Ted Freeman, which freed up a
slot. However, Freeman's death occurred early enough in the program
that, IIRC, he hadn't been pencilled in on any rotation. Note that
most, if not all of the Astronauts who were part of the program at
that time were convinced that had Freeman lived, he would have been in
line for Apollo and more likely than not one of the Lunar missions.

1) The deaths of Eliot See & Charlie Bassett, which bumped Neil up
from backup to prime crew for G8, and shuffled around the rest of the
Gemini rotation, and put Buzz into a prime crew spot.

2) The A1 fire, which delayed the program long enough for mission
reshuffling and cancelling - ie, AS-278 - to shuffle the rotation
again with three less Astronauts in line.

3) The delay in the LM, which resulted in A8 & A9 being switched, A8
being redefined totally, and the resulting rotation that up to that
point pretty much had Pete Conrad and CC Williams in line for the
first landing attempt.

...So, it wasn't just A1 that led to Neil and Buzz being assigned to
A11. These three factors combined are what led to their place in
history, and should always be considered equally when discussing how
the A11 crew was determined.

OM

mosley, see the previous post, you don't have a clue. would
you like to buy a vowel?