Cost of launch and laws of physics

"Christopher James Huff" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"johnhare" wrote:

Maybe I should rephrase that. Unless things change in such a way that
small groups of people can accomplish these things or someone with
lots
of money decides to fund it, it's going to need to at least pay for
itself. But there are people who would consider it worth doing, even
if
doing something else would turn a higher profit.

Pro sports industry.

That a counterexample? Lots of people doing stuff that's completely
useless for the many millions of dollars they get in return... ;-)

Not counter example. A massive industry built around intangable
returns. I.e. no physical product. Backing the point you make below.
If the profits were as clear as an Ordover demands, then investors
would be swamping the start ups. This lack of undisputable killer
app is why visionaries are defensive at this time. The right entrepreneur
gets the right combination, and there will be a singularity. I'm not
claiming to have it or be positive of who does. I just believe there is an
excellent chance of the combination happening by those that try,
and zero chance by those who don't.

For an example, look at the people trying for suborbital craft. Or
people who try to set other records. Rutan's Voyager flight around the
world. Archeologists. Some of these people are quite well organized and
funded, and do things for personal rewards rather than monetary ones.

--
Christopher James Huff
http://home.earthlink.net/~cjameshuff/
POV-Ray TAG:
http://tag.povray.org/

(John Ordover) :

Earl Colby Pottinger wrote in message
...
(John Ordover) :

And then theres the fact that many people consider it worth doing, just

for the sake of doing it. Economics aren't the only human motivator.

You know, except for a few mountain-climbing folks, I can't think of a
single example of humans, as a whole, doing anything for non-economic
reasons.

Damn, I must be having delusions again.

I keep thinking that people a

Flying multi-million dollar ballons to fly around the world.

That they build and solo-sail multi-million dollar boats in a number of
dangerous races (Around the world, The Race, The Jules Verne race, The
Clipper Challenge ... etc) just to win a piece to put on thier mantle.

Custom build and fly planes on unusual routes (The twin poles route for
example).

Build multi-million dollar boats and cars to break speed records.

Keep trying to jump from higher and higher heights and are building custom
craft to do it from.

Exactly how many people? Less than a thousand? That some people do
nutty things to win status - like the mountain climbers I mentioned -
is an established fact. But people as a whole act only for economic
reasons.

Boy, you really are not connected to the real world lately. I really suggest
you go to your local library and start looking thru some magazines about what
people are doing right this minute in the real world.

There would be in all the major boat races more that a thousands people
alone. There are all the minor boat races where the count is in the hundreds
of thousands if not more than a million.

Custom Planes that fly major routes probably a hundred or more. Custom
Planes that fly minor/semi-major routes again hundreds of thousands if not
more than a million.

High Speed Boats to break world records - low hundreds. High Speed Boats to
break local records tens of thousands.

High Speed Car fewer than a hundred as there are few places to run cars at
those speeds. We will not even guess at the number of custom/souped-up car
out there.

Jumpers for world records just a dozen. Jumpers for just the fun of it, if
millions

But those were just examples, you don't think it stop there do you? Silly
boy. Check Wired for the guy who just made high-speed wings for flying, or
the people now making thier own submarines, the people making thier own
rockets, the people making/doing what they want.

The list above was just a start, I am sorry that you don't seem aware that
there is a big wide open world out there, and there are a lot of people who
are doing things you would never imagine doing yourself, but really that is
just your limits, not others.

************************************************** ************************

As always you try to limit human behaviour to your limits only. Millions
of people every year spend money on things with no economic return to
them (The entire tourist industry alone is based on that), what is the
economic return on going to a sports event? Or buying a telescope?
Bird-watching by those who are really serious about it costs thousands
a year, and the return in some marks in a little black book.

Yes, but thousands aren't millions or billions, and the telescope
lasts a long time.

Please tell that you are really not that stupid, and this is just a
misunderstanding.

1) The Tourist industry is 100,000,000s (hundreds of millions) of people
every year - year in, year out. Any small town that depends on tourists
moves thousands of them every year thru thier town. Where do you get only
thousands from?

2) The Sports Industry goes bigger, billions of people watch and pay into
sport events with no economic return.

3) Telescopes, millions sold!

4) Bird Watchers, you mean there are a few thousand per big city don't you?
(I hope) Bird Watchers count into millions world wide.

You are sadly out of touch with the full range of human behaviour, it is
clear that you don't go out much or search much of the web to have such
beliefs. Please, try and widen your horizons, there is too much life to
live, to live it so limited.

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Christopher James Huff :

In article ,
Earl Colby Pottinger wrote:

Because NASA built only the ISS instead of also free flying processing
units.
Doing ZeroG research is hard if everytime the shuttle docks the station
rings for the next week. Yes I am making it worse than it is but NASA
seems
to do everything possible to stop free flyers around the ISS where they
could
be monitored and serviced easyly.

I think multiple free-flyers would have severe problems with drift,
especially in low earth orbit where there's still traces of atmospheric
friction. Maybe have a single free-flyer which the station keeps
relative position with...but I think you're otherwise right. The ISS has
held back research in this area. The fact that there isn't presently
something to make it economically viable does not mean there never will
be, it's just too early to say anything other than that it is a
possibility. I personally think it's more likely to happen than not.

Just one free-flyer that the experiments on it that do not have to worry
about docking or crew vibrations would be a major improvement. Also I could
well be wrong, but I understand a large percentage of the ISS costs was for
vibration control. Corrections?

Earl Colby Pottinger


--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

In article , John
Ordover wrote:

Exactly how many people? Less than a thousand? That some people do
nutty things to win status - like the mountain climbers I mentioned -
is an established fact. But people as a whole act only for economic
reasons.

John, I live in a decent-sized city; second-largest in the country, in
fact. Half a million people, to a first order guess.

Some fireworks have just finished ringing outside my window; they're
being fired off for the delectation of people who've gone to see a lot
of people in silly suits march up and down a bit of tarmac. This is
considered quite an honour by many of those wearing the silly suits, who
do it twenty-five times a year, to over 200,000 people. A third of those
have paid good money to come from overseas and see it.

Those 200,000 people are part of the ~500,000 (yes, the population over
again) who descend upon the city each summer, at least half of whom have
come from overseas, and all of whom spend money on the most unbelievably
silly and transient things.

People aren't mandated by law to take holidays; even if they were,
there's no economic reason they should queue for hours to pay excessive
amounts to fly somewhere else, queue for hours and pay stupid amounts.

I find it hard to believe they're doing this from hard-headed economic
motivation, much as I like their input to my economy. (I suspect
sometimes they're a grand plot to test public transport systems to
breaking point, but then that's just paranoia... probably...)

--
-Andrew Gray

The right entrepreneur
gets the right combination, and there will be a singularity.


Which is what I'm saying will be necessary - better to put energy into
coming up with the "kill app" that will draw investors to space than
in semi-futile space effors with no clear profit source.

John Ordover wrote:
Not many people would want to live "downwind" of the space elevator,
in case it breaks and falls on them. That's a very large area to have
to clear out.

*banging head on table*

Why do people keep thinking that the space elevator is going to
be a large heavy painful thing that will do catastrophic
damage if it falls?

Terminal velocity of thin wires and cables is not high.


-george william herbert

First, the concepts I've seen have it placed on the coast or on an
island off the coast of Australia.

Doesn't it have to be on the equator? Can't be Australia, then.

And second, if it does break, you get a bunch of ultra-light ribbon
falling from the sky...it'll make a mess, but wouldn't cause much
damage.

If it's strong enough so support its own weight for miles as well as the weight
of cargo carriers, migt the stuff not come down in long pieces?

If it hit you on
the head, it'd hurt about as much as a piece of paper.

Even if so, it would be a very *hot* bit of paper when it reached your head.

"John Ordover" wrote in message
om...
(E.R.) wrote in message
. com...
(John Ordover) wrote in message
. com...
A space elevator would do that better than anything else. I hope one
is
built within my lifetime. Simple, safe, cheap...there's probably
some
reason it can't be done.

It can't be done - the materials don't exist, and the political
problems would be huge.

Never say 'Never', John. The materials DO indeed exist; UT-Rice is
running small scale experiments that have yielded ribbons that, while
not having the requiste strength, are pointing in the right direction.
Once you have a ribbon material, the rest is a matter of finance.
What political problems?

~ER

Not many people would want to live "downwind" of the space elevator,
in case it breaks and falls on them. That's a very large area to have
to clear out.

Pure, unbased and intentionally harmful FUD.
http://www.liftport.com/pages/index....ge&pageID=1234
Under the heading "Frequent Misconceptions"
Please do at least the minimal of research ( ever heard of google ? ) before
posting crap.

Space elevators are not without their problems, but while discussing them
lets get the basic concepts correct, alrite ?

-kert

Christopher James Huff :

In article ,
(G EddieA95) wrote:

If it hit you on the head, it'd hurt about as much as a piece of paper.

Even if so, it would be a very *hot* bit of paper when it reached your
head.

Why would it be hot? It would be unable to hold much heat, even if you
heated it until it glowed (which the binder would probably not withstand
anyway), the surrounding air would cool it within minutes. It will be at
ambient temperature when it reaches the ground.
Well, forces like wind blowing around other parts that haven't fallen
yet might drag it fast enough to give you the equivalent of a carpet
burn...

Also remember this ribbon is mostly carbon fibers. If it gets that hot
because it fell a long distance before hitting air it will just burn up
before reaching the ground. Only the first 50-100 kilometers of the
beanstalk could ever hit the surface, all the rest will burn up on re-entry.

Earl Colby Pottinger

--
I make public email sent to me! Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos,
SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to
the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Also remember this ribbon is mostly carbon fibers. If it gets that hot
because it fell a long distance before hitting air it will just burn up
before reaching the ground. Only the first 50-100 kilometers of the
beanstalk could ever hit the surface, all the rest will burn up on re-entry.

Earl Colby Pottinger

So there is no intention to send payloads up and down the elevator?
Payloads that could and would fall at high speed if the cable broke?