Mars program is shut down

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars. This program will go from 587 million
in 2012 to 189 million in 2015. Two thirds of the budget are gone.

In general, even if planetary science has a total budget of almost
nothing (1200 million dollars/year) it is not really necessary to the
people in power.

As a comparison, the F35 fighter jet program of the pentagon has costs
of one TRILLION dollars.

Obviously the administration has clear goals and clear priorities.

Many people in this group have always insisted that NASA is just waste.
Well, they have been heard. In a few years, there will be no NASA any more.

"jacob navia" wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.
I don't think we should be planning future missions to Mars
until we see what the MSL finds. If it finds life, well, that's
kinda like landing on the Moon, after the first time no one
cares anymore. If it doesn't find life than a next generation
of rovers should be sent. But why the hell do they need
$500 million a year for that?


This program will go from 587 million
in 2012 to 189 million in 2015. Two thirds of the budget are gone.

In general, even if planetary science has a total budget of almost
nothing (1200 million dollars/year) it is not really necessary to the
people in power.

As a comparison, the F35 fighter jet program of the pentagon has costs
of one TRILLION dollars.


And that will be a mainstay of our Air Force for probably
twenty or thirty years. And btw it appears the next generation
of fighters will be..unmanned also. Technology is making it harder
to justify the costs and time spans of manned space flight.



Obviously the administration has clear goals and clear priorities.

Many people in this group have always insisted that NASA is just waste.


It should be clear what happened. The whole Bush 'Vision' was
the civilian cover story used while transferring the shuttle replacement
to the military black budget. The fact Bush hardly mentioned the Moon
after the initial policy announcement made it clear even he didn't
support going through with any Moon landings, and if he didn't
why would anyone think the next administration would?



Well, they have been heard. In a few years, there will be no NASA any
more.



The replacement for the shuttle, the X-37b, is being ...expedited
by the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office, which rushes combat
programs into existence through the black budget.
It's probably very well funded now and without so much politics.

The best parts of NASA went black budget.
You can blame bin Laden and the Chinese for that.

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!


s

On Feb 29, 5:48*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"jacob navia" wrote in message

...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.

Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.
I don't think we should be planning future missions to Mars
until we see what the MSL finds. If it finds life, well, that's
kinda like landing on the Moon, after the first time no one
cares anymore. If it doesn't find life than a next generation
of rovers should be sent. But why the hell do they need
$500 million a year for that?

This program will go from 587 million
in 2012 to 189 million in 2015. Two thirds of the budget are gone.

In general, even if planetary science has a total budget of almost
nothing (1200 million dollars/year) it is not really necessary to the
people in power.

As a comparison, the F35 fighter jet program of the pentagon has costs
of one TRILLION dollars.

And that will be a mainstay of our Air Force for probably
twenty or thirty years. And btw it appears the next generation
of fighters will be..unmanned also. Technology is making it harder
to justify the costs and time spans of manned space flight.



Obviously the administration has clear goals and clear priorities.

Many people in this group have always insisted that NASA is just waste.

It should be clear what happened. The whole Bush 'Vision' was
the civilian cover story used while transferring the shuttle replacement
to the military black budget. The fact Bush hardly mentioned the Moon
after the initial policy announcement made it clear even he didn't
support going through with any Moon landings, and if he didn't
why would anyone think the next administration would?

Well, they have been heard. In a few years, there will be no NASA any
more.

The replacement for the shuttle, the X-37b, *is being ...expedited
by the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office, which rushes combat
programs into existence through the black budget.
It's probably very well funded now and without so much politics.

The best parts of NASA went black budget.
You can blame bin Laden and the Chinese for that.

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!

s

This world can not possibly afford the kind of democracy you speak of.

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Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...
On Feb 29, 5:48 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!

s

This world can not possibly afford the kind of democracy you speak of.

Freedom-diversity-randomness-uncertainty is the ideal initial condition for
democracy-evolution-order-beauty, to spontaneously emerge.

If the rest of the world catches up to America in prosperity, everyone
would benefit, even us. The math is clear, just as a ball spun inside
a bowl will always come to rest at the bottom, the most probable
final state of any sufficiently complex system is to self-organize
and hill-climb. Sooner or later. Why deny the inevitable?

Nature always wins in the end, so the sooner the better.

Sometimes the significance of history is hard to see as it happens.
For instance, just yesterday, North Korea signaled it's about
to roll over once and for all. The walls are falling so fast, or
Nature is spreading so fast, it's hard to keep up.

Remember, self-organization or complexity is a natural result
of systems displaying highly ...parallel connectivity.
All things Internet is creating just that kind of connectivity.

Great evolutionary leaps happen suddenly, and the effects
are usually overwhelming. Like intelligence opening up
a vast scale of new possibilities, and almost overnight the
world is transformed. Non-linear change acts like a
shock wave cascading throughout, going viral.

We're living in the /very middle/ of such an evolutionary
advance. The sudden expansion into the "adjacent possible"
is something that only happens once an ecosystem.

And the adjacent door opens into a new possibility space
a hundred times more magnificent than what came before.
A thousand times.

And that doesn't merely mean today's pipe-dreams can
become reality, but even things we can't possibly imagine
today.


"Of Paradise' existence
All we know
Is the uncertain certainty
But its vicinity infer,
By its Bisecting
Messenger"

By E Dickinson.



"The Genius of the Tinkerer"
Wall Street Journal

"The scientist Stuart Kauffman has a suggestive name
for the set of all those first-order combinations:
"the adjacent possible."

"The adjacent possible is a kind of shadow future, hovering
on the edges of the present state of things, a map of all
the ways in which the present can reinvent itself."

"The strange and beautiful truth about the adjacent possible
is that its boundaries grow as you explore them. Each new
combination opens up the possibility of other new combinations.
Think of it as a house that magically expands with each door
you open. Once you open one of those doors and stroll into
that room, three new doors appear, each leading to a
brand-new room that you couldn't have reached from your
original starting point. Keep opening new doors and eventually
you'll have built a palace."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...101860838.html


s



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Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / "Guth Usenet"

On Mar 1, 5:49*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Brad Guth" wrote in message

...
On Feb 29, 5:48 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

~Blame the lack of world-wide democracy.
Once we have that, then we can dream!

s
This world can not possibly afford the kind of democracy you speak of.

Freedom-diversity-randomness-uncertainty is the ideal initial condition for
democracy-evolution-order-beauty, to spontaneously emerge.

If the rest of the world catches up to America in prosperity, everyone
would benefit, even us. The math is clear, just as a ball spun inside
a bowl will always come to rest at the bottom, the most probable
final state of any sufficiently complex system is to self-organize
and hill-climb. Sooner or later. Why deny the inevitable?

Nature always wins in the end, so the sooner the better.

Sometimes the significance of history is hard to see as it happens.
For instance, just yesterday, North Korea signaled it's about
to roll over once and for all. The walls are falling so fast, or
Nature is spreading so fast, *it's hard to keep up.

Remember, self-organization or complexity is a natural result
of systems displaying highly ...parallel connectivity.
All things Internet is creating just that kind of connectivity.

Great evolutionary leaps happen suddenly, and the effects
are usually overwhelming. Like intelligence opening up
a vast scale of new possibilities, and almost overnight the
world is transformed. Non-linear change acts like a
shock wave cascading throughout, going viral.

We're living in the /very middle/ of such an evolutionary
advance. The sudden expansion into the "adjacent possible"
is something that only happens once an ecosystem.

And the adjacent door opens into a new possibility space
a hundred times more magnificent than what came before.
A thousand times.

And that doesn't merely mean today's pipe-dreams can
become reality, but even things we can't possibly imagine
today.

"Of Paradise' existence
All we know
Is the uncertain certainty
But its vicinity infer,
By its Bisecting
Messenger"

By E Dickinson.

"The Genius of the Tinkerer"
*Wall Street Journal

"The scientist Stuart Kauffman has a suggestive name
for the set of all those first-order combinations:
"the adjacent possible."

"The adjacent possible is a kind of shadow future, hovering
on the edges of the present state of things, a map of all
the ways in which the present can reinvent itself."

"The strange and beautiful truth about the adjacent possible
is that its boundaries grow as you explore them. Each new
combination opens up the possibility of other new combinations.
Think of it as a house that magically expands with each door
you open. *Once you open one of those doors and stroll into
that room, three new doors appear, each leading to a
brand-new room that you couldn't have reached from your
original starting point. Keep opening *new doors and eventually
you'll have built a palace."http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870398930457550373010186...

s

Meanwhile, back on earth and under the thumbs of the rich and powerful
that maintain authority over anyone we care to elect or appoint, the
reality is that the ruse of democracy is at best dysfunctional.

Btw; what does Mars have that Venus doesn't have at least ten fold
more to offer?

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
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Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / “Guth Usenet”

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
...

Meanwhile, back on earth and under the thumbs of the rich and powerful
that maintain authority over anyone we care to elect or appoint, the
reality is that the ruse of democracy is at best dysfunctional.


You'll never get rid of corruption or any other human vice.
But you can design systems that keep it under control.
A democracy is just like a jury trial, if both sides have
equal abilities, and the judge is impartial, than a good
result happens more often than not.

'Walls', or an imbalance between sides, are what
make the rich and powerful. And with the world
as it is, our side, the people grow more equal with
every 'wall' that falls.Whether it's a dictatorship, monopoly
censorship or religious dogma, they're all walls to freedom
and natural systems.

And it's pretty easy to look around the nations of the
world and see which ones are...closer to that ideal then
others. America is closer, which explains our...relative
prosperity and freedom.

The walls, all different kinds, are falling faster every day.


tw; what does Mars have that Venus doesn't have at
least ten fold
more to offer?


Life needs complexity. And complexity is the union
of opposite extremes. Venus has settled ..on one extreme.
So the conditions for life are very poor as compared
to Mars, which is closer to the opposite extreme, but
still has underground water/ice. So a balance between
opposites can be found near the surface.

What I expect then to find on Mars isn't life really, but
the 'missing link' between geology and life. An intermediate
form which explains just how geology makes the first leap
to life. That's what I think those spheres are.

They have the form and distribution just like the very
first single celled life that evolved on Earth. Which were
stromatolites and banded iron formations, which evolved
using a sulfur rich, salty and low oxygen environment.
And left behind iron deposits, often spherical.
Just like on Mars.

Seeing all that happen a second time on Mars will
confirm that life merely needs a persistent energy
gradient of some kind, complexity, as the ultimate
initial condition.

And that conclusion means life isn't a fluke, but the
universe is, or will become teeming with life.
We might not ever visit another life form, but
we can 'know' they must be out there.

And I think that's a big deal, because that very
same knowledge will show humanity how that
the Earth has all humanity needs to sustain itself
and just how.


s

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Brad Guth, Brad_Guth, Brad.Guth, BradGuth, BG / "Guth Usenet"

In article ,
says...

"jacob navia" wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

That's your opinion, but there are many people who feel that if we're
never going to send people there, then what's the point of it all? Why
spend billions "exploring" another planet with robots if we're never
going to set foot on it ourselves?

I don't think we should be planning future missions to Mars
until we see what the MSL finds. If it finds life, well, that's
kinda like landing on the Moon, after the first time no one
cares anymore. If it doesn't find life than a next generation
of rovers should be sent. But why the hell do they need
$500 million a year for that?

Why the hell would we spend that kind of money if there wasn't any
desire to send people there?

This program will go from 587 million
in 2012 to 189 million in 2015. Two thirds of the budget are gone.

In general, even if planetary science has a total budget of almost
nothing (1200 million dollars/year) it is not really necessary to the
people in power.

As a comparison, the F35 fighter jet program of the pentagon has costs
of one TRILLION dollars.


And that will be a mainstay of our Air Force for probably
twenty or thirty years. And btw it appears the next generation
of fighters will be..unmanned also. Technology is making it harder
to justify the costs and time spans of manned space flight.

This makes no sense. What's your point?

Obviously the administration has clear goals and clear priorities.

Many people in this group have always insisted that NASA is just waste.


It should be clear what happened. The whole Bush 'Vision' was
the civilian cover story used while transferring the shuttle replacement
to the military black budget. The fact Bush hardly mentioned the Moon
after the initial policy announcement made it clear even he didn't
support going through with any Moon landings, and if he didn't
why would anyone think the next administration would?

Only in your deluded mind. DoD has their own space budget, thank you
very much.

Well, they have been heard. In a few years, there will be no NASA
any
more.



The replacement for the shuttle, the X-37b, is being ...expedited
by the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office, which rushes combat
programs into existence through the black budget.
It's probably very well funded now and without so much politics.

X-37b isn't a replacement for the space shuttle. It's capabilities are
quite different in order to support quite different missions. The
shuttle's extremely limited stay time in LEO made it little better than
a launch vehicle for DoD. X-37b is a reusable *spacecraft* with in
orbit endurance that the shuttle could never match.

The best parts of NASA went black budget.
You can blame bin Laden and the Chinese for that.

Where is the evidence for this? It's far too convenient for conspiracy
theorists to speculate about "black" programs without ever having a clue
what they hell they're talking about. Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof. You don't even have mediocre "proof", let alone
extraordinary proof.

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker

Le 01/03/12 14:32, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In articleyMudnWDUlpKBS9PSnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
says...

"jacob wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

That's your opinion, but there are many people who feel that if we're
never going to send people there, then what's the point of it all? Why
spend billions "exploring" another planet with robots if we're never
going to set foot on it ourselves?



That's your opinion. Following your opinion there is no point in exploring:

o The sun. We are surely never going to build a home sweet home
in a body with 6 000 Celsius at the surface :-)
o Mercury, Venus: Same problems. Too hot.
o Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune: Too cold.

Following your opinion we should limit ourselves to exploring
our own planet, the ONLY planet in the universe where we can live
without any previous investment in terra-forming and exploration...

I don't think we should be planning future missions to Mars
until we see what the MSL finds. If it finds life, well, that's
kinda like landing on the Moon, after the first time no one
cares anymore. If it doesn't find life than a next generation
of rovers should be sent. But why the hell do they need
$500 million a year for that?

Why the hell would we spend that kind of money if there wasn't any
desire to send people there?


See above.

[snip]

It should be clear what happened. The whole Bush 'Vision' was
the civilian cover story used while transferring the shuttle replacement
to the military black budget. The fact Bush hardly mentioned the Moon
after the initial policy announcement made it clear even he didn't
support going through with any Moon landings, and if he didn't
why would anyone think the next administration would?

Only in your deluded mind. DoD has their own space budget, thank you
very much.


You are welcome. But that budget is not going to finance ANY kind
of exploration, just the only thing "DoD" knows: weapons.


X-37b isn't a replacement for the space shuttle. It's capabilities are
quite different in order to support quite different missions. The
shuttle's extremely limited stay time in LEO made it little better than
a launch vehicle for DoD. X-37b is a reusable *spacecraft* with in
orbit endurance that the shuttle could never match.


Of course. X37b is a WEAPON, not a spacecraft. It is designed to
KILL (the only thing weapons can do).

In article , says...

Le 01/03/12 14:32, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In articleyMudnWDUlpKBS9PSnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
says...

"jacob wrote in message
...

The administration has decided to pursue the dismantling of NASA. After
shutting down the human space exploration program, now is the time to
shut down planetary science.

It starts with the study of Mars.


Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

That's your opinion, but there are many people who feel that if we're
never going to send people there, then what's the point of it all? Why
spend billions "exploring" another planet with robots if we're never
going to set foot on it ourselves?



That's your opinion. Following your opinion there is no point in exploring:

o The sun. We are surely never going to build a home sweet home
in a body with 6 000 Celsius at the surface :-)

It's pretty much impossible to explore the sun. The best we can do is
observer from a distance. Observing the sun *is* important because it's
activity directly impacts Earth. For example, unmanned spacecraft are
used to monitor the sun in order to predict "solar storms", which can
disrupt communications and long distance power distribution.

o Mercury, Venus: Same problems. Too hot.
o Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune: Too cold.

Venus is of interest because it's similar in size and location (relative
to the sun) to Earth. Most of the others have only been observed (fly-
bys, orbiting probes, and etc.), not directly, physically, explored with
some sort of lander based on the planet's surface.

I'd like to note that the most explored planet is Mars. We've landed
more probes on Mars than any other planet in the solar system. I'd like
to note that it's also the easiest planet in the solar system to
colonize. The relationship between actual exploration of Mars and it's
potential for colonization is not an accident.

Following your opinion we should limit ourselves to exploring
our own planet, the ONLY planet in the universe where we can live
without any previous investment in terra-forming and exploration...

No, Mars is the next (big) logical step for manned space exploration.
Putting people on Mars would ramp up the science output by orders of
magnitude.

X-37b isn't a replacement for the space shuttle. It's capabilities
are
quite different in order to support quite different missions. The
shuttle's extremely limited stay time in LEO made it little better than
a launch vehicle for DoD. X-37b is a reusable *spacecraft* with in
orbit endurance that the shuttle could never match.


Of course. X37b is a WEAPON, not a spacecraft. It is designed to
KILL (the only thing weapons can do).

The ability for X-37b to "kill" is an unsupported assertion. It's
possible, but not bloody likely.

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker

Exploring Mars is about finding life, not building colonies.

It really has to do with things that inspire the tax payer who's footing the
bill. Man on Mars is the only way we'll really study and hopefully use the
planet, and man exploring an alien world can be made interesting and
exciting, The spirit of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo can lice again. I don't
sense this type of spirit for the ISS or many unmanned activities - It's
sometimes hard to find folks who even kown some of these programs exist - or
for that matter care!

I see the approach here as - cancel Mars as a manned space flight goal. So
now we can drop the unmanned (Pre-cursor) missions.

Put the money into the James Webb Telescope, which is a higher scientific
goal.

When Mars programs are dead - realize the average person has no idea about
what the Webb Telescope is about - so you kill it without much fuss - It's
done it's job - it killed the Mars programs.

Next comes the one manned mission - go explore a mathematical point in
space. The stand up comedians should have a field day with this one as it
approaches cancellation.

How do yoou eat an elephant? One part at a time. How do you kill NASA - one
program at a time.