Yay. In trouble with ITAR...

While I was out today, a voicemail came in from a General Dynamics
Export Control Compliance guy at NASA/KSC. Wanted to ahve a chat with me
about my web page he
http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm

Didn't leave details, and by the time I heard the message, he had long
since left for the weekend. So I get to wait until Monday, I suppose.

So I did the obvious thing... lookeda t that page to see what was on
there that might be ITAR-problematic. I don;t see nuthin' but mostly
Saturn stuff, witha bit of Shuttle and Dyna Soar. I figured maybe he
got the wrong page, and instead meant this page:
http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocair.htm

That, at least, has some Convair nuclear powered aircraft stuff. Figured
that must be it, the guy being from General Dynamicws and all.

But then I got this message from a contact who worked at KSC:

"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control
Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our
office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the
Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public
relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing
the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all
covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him
some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not
care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we
took them down and shredded them."


WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:31:13 GMT, Scott Lowther
wrote:

"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control
Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our
office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the
Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public
relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing
the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all
covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him
some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not
care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we
took them down and shredded them."

....****'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring
the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to
explain where he can shove his insane attitude.

WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?

....Have you contacted him yet about this?

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

OM wrote:


...****'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website,

Well, now, that *would* tend to defeat the whole purpose in *selling*
them on CD-ROM. However, if you've bought a copy, and they come down on
me like a hammer and make me stop selling them (though I'm not quite
sure how they could do that), then, why, I can hardly say as that I'd be
odffended at them popping up online.


WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?



...Have you contacted him yet about this?


No. But Monday comes, and their trouble *is* the Saturn drawings... you
damned betcha I'll be contacting him. Right after I get done laughing my
ass off. Unless they send me to federal PMITA prison for selling
40-year-old drawings of long obsolete launch vehicles.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken

In article ,
Scott Lowther "scottlowtherAT ix DOT netcom DOT com" wrote:
-=-=-=-=-=-

OM wrote:


...****'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website,

Well, now, that *would* tend to defeat the whole purpose in *selling*
them on CD-ROM.

I suppose you wouldn't get the dynamic seen with books: offer
an e-copy for free and get additional sales from people who prefer
paper.


--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no
reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong
probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken

Scott,

What a load of cobblers, eh. If IT is different how can Life and Love
in IT not be an Alternate Reality Game? Herr Mencken only supports a
Negative Option.

"OM" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:31:13 GMT, Scott Lowther
wrote:

"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control
Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our
office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the
Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public
relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing
the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all
covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him
some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not
care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we
took them down and shredded them."

...****'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring
the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to
explain where he can shove his insane attitude.


Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest
threat to the security of the United States. And if for a moment
you would stop and think before speaking such ignorant
statements. You might realize that if the agency with the
responsibility of enforcing such technology protections were
grossly understaffed, it might not have the time to sit and engage
in lengthly arguments with each and every joe blow over his
favorite poster.

And simply ban anything and everything even remotely close
to violation as a time saving measure and with no discussion
allowed.

I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to
national security our govt errs on the side of caution.

But go ahead anyways, take a stand on this one.

I dare ya!




WTF??? Saturn V is under ITAR control? Has anyone told David Weeks?

...Have you contacted him yet about this?

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

Jonathan wrote:

Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest
threat to the security of the United States.


Which has nothing to do with *this* instance. The drawings I've been
trying to sell are virtually the same as drawings being sold at the US
Space and Rocket Center gift shop... and *less* useful than drawings
produced by Weeks. The drawings I have are *not* useful for ballistic
missile design. These are drawings *published* by NASA in the open press.

I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to
national security our govt errs on the side of caution.

Ah.... Sandy Berger.


--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 12:26:37 -0400, "Jonathan"
wrote:


"OM" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:31:13 GMT, Scott Lowther
wrote:

"However, just before we left KSC, a guy from the NASA Export Control
Office (which is run by some contractor, maybe Analex?) came by our
office on an "inspection" and told us we had to take down all the
Saturn V drawings we had around ... now, these were just old NAA public
relation drawings, plus a few commercially-purchased posters showing
the Saturn V internals in very rough detail. He said they were all
covered by ITAR and therefore had to be locked up! We kept telling him
some were purchased at the Visitor Center Gift Shop, but he did not
care. He ended up coming around with an armed security cop until we
took them down and shredded them."

...****'im. Send *me* copies, and I'll post them on my website, daring
the catamite to order me to take them down. I'll be more than happy to
explain where he can shove his insane attitude.


Technology leakage of ballistic missiles is the single largest
threat to the security of the United States. And if for a moment
you would stop and think before speaking such ignorant
statements. You might realize that if the agency with the
responsibility of enforcing such technology protections were
grossly understaffed, it might not have the time to sit and engage
in lengthly arguments with each and every joe blow over his
favorite poster.

And simply ban anything and everything even remotely close
to violation as a time saving measure and with no discussion
allowed.

I find it rather comforting to know that when it comes to
national security our govt errs on the side of caution.


Uh yeah. Which is why I was able to download a 330 page writeup on
Peacekeeper complete with drawings of many deployment schemes studied,
another one on HiBEX and LoADS (ABM systems) and so forth. All from
the Defense Technical Information Center. So where's the rational of
hounding someone about having civilian stuff out there for download
when all the while you (the government that is) have all this MILITARY
stuff out there for the taking?

Could someone who knows about ITAR give us a quick tutorial on what
the enforcement procedures are?

Assuming (which I think unlikely given that this has now gotten out
into the public realm) the guy who called Scott decides to report a
possible violation back to the State Department, probably through NASA
channels, what happens next? Obviously State has to decide whether
the report has merit -- but if they do, can they levy fines, send in
SWAT teams etc. on their own or do they have to persuade DHS or DOJ to
actually apply the muscle?

This assumes, of course, that the preferred extralegal methods
(threats to employment and livelihood, typically) are not available
and that some sort of legal route would have to be used.

wrote:

This assumes, of course, that the preferred extralegal methods
(threats to employment and livelihood, typically) are not available...



Heh. Given that the document/drawing biz, along with eAPR and my model
biz, *are* my sole sources of income.... they would either have an
incredibly easy time of damaging my employment, or incredibly hard. They
could try to talk my boss into bitchslapping me, but since I *am* my
boss....



--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken