Space Policy: Why Mars should be our top priority.

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 02:58:44PM -0700, BradGuth wrote:
[Apollo]
Truth be told, we obviously can't seem to deal with Eden/Earth, much
less afford to take on Mars, and we certainly can't put any physical
claims or extract benefits from our highly unusual Selene/moon, which
makes this another highly bogus topic.

I'll say. My analysis of the situation suggests that we're all
looking at the wrong planets. A couple of years ago I was convinced
that Jupiter and Saturn (and their moons) offered the best place to
situate human habitation. Fuel and water is plentiful, and the
Earth/Moon system close enough for support operations but far enough
away to offer a degree of socio-political freedom for resident/colonists.

Now we know that Saturn/Jupiter exploration and development is less
favorable as an end in itself than a way to make Pluto-Charon
operations more effective. Ten years ago we should have been
launching nuke-plants, tooling, and indispensable materials to low-
energy warehouse orbits around the Pluto-Charon system, via gravity
assist by intervening solar bodies. Existing proven launch vehicles
existed in 2000 to bootstrap the whole affair, with improving rocket
technology supporting the later manned missions.

But nooooooo! We had to have a recession instead.

And the great mutual ruse/sting of their mutually perpetrated cold-war
century continues, as though a white Zionist god and all of his
kingdom were on the same side of the USSR/USA coinage, the other side
depicting an unmentionable private body part at full erection.

We’re seeing such bogus topics posted that even a failing 5th grader
can easily interpret as to what a total crock of mainstream infowar
tactics is going on. Too bad that BHO is going to have little
budgetary option but to cut our NASA budget sown to the bone
(eliminating most everything except the most pressing terrestrial
related matters), thanks mostly to their corrupt politics and their
SEC approved Ponzi Madoff and Big Mother Ponzi AIG, because it’s all
situated in the nearest toilet.

Just checked GM stock, and lo and behold it's almost worth as much a
toilet paper, along with a number of other public bailout investments
going onto the nearest toilet. That's OK, because what's another
million of middle and upper class unemployed, plus at least another
half million of preexisting UAW retirements and seeing everyone’s
medical benefits trashed, all because of our corrupt and greedy UAW
and faith-based corrupted government agencies of loot and benefit
hording era. Chances of UAW and GM survival are looking grim, as
though now they got next to nothing outside of whatever chapter 7
manages to liquidate. Way to go warlord republicans and faith-based
puppet masters.

Besides chapter 11s, how many chapter 7s per business day are we
averaging?

Too many to count accurately.

The tanking economy's got it's hooks in your brain, Brad. Focus.


Robert Collins

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:35:26 +0000, Robert Collins wrote:

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 02:58:44PM -0700, BradGuth wrote: [Apollo]
Truth be told, we obviously can't seem to deal with Eden/Earth, much
less afford to take on Mars, and we certainly can't put any physical
claims or extract benefits from our highly unusual Selene/moon, which
makes this another highly bogus topic.

I'll say. My analysis of the situation suggests that we're all looking
at the wrong planets. A couple of years ago I was convinced that
Jupiter and Saturn (and their moons) offered the best place to situate
human habitation. Fuel and water is plentiful, and the Earth/Moon
system close enough for support operations but far enough away to offer
a degree of socio-political freedom for resident/colonists.

Energy wise & rocket wise, Mars is closer than the moon, but Jupiter is
WAY the heck out there.

It is a difficult paradigm shift; on earth the farther away things are,
the more difficult it is to get to them. Not so in astrodynamics! It has
to do with orbits and if the planet has an atmosphere that can be used to
aero-brake.

And there isn't much sunlight at Jupiter. Mars has 44% of the sunlight
that Earth gets. Mars is 1.6-1.4 AU, but Jupiter is 5-5.4 AU, so it gets
only 1/25 the sunlight. You're not going to grow plants in a greenhouse
out at Jupiter or beyond, and solar power is ruled out.

Marvin the Martian wrote:
:
:Energy wise & rocket wise, Mars is closer than the moon,
:

You've said this before. I've pointed out that the source you gave
doesn't agree with your claim. Go add it up for yourself.

--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:14:47 -0700, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote: :
:Energy wise & rocket wise, Mars is closer than the moon, :

You've said this before. I've pointed out that the source you gave
doesn't agree with your claim. Go add it up for yourself.

Yes, I've said it before.

You didn't point out anything.

Let's go he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v...e_Solar_System
From LEO to the moon surface is 4.1 km/s + 1.6 km/s.

So the KE from LEO (Low Earth Orbit) to the moon is 1/2 m v^2 = 16.24 kJ/
kg.

From LEO to Mars is 2.5 + 0.7 + 0.6 = 3.8 km/s The red arrows indicate
the opportunity to Aerobrake; using the planet's atmosphere to slow down
rather than needing rocket energy. So the KE from LEO to Mars is 7.22 kJ/
kg, less than half the energy of the trip to the moon.

For further benefit, there's the Mass ratios. Since the mass ratios go as
exp(delta V/ v_e) where delta V is the final velocity of the rocket and
v_e is the exhaust velocity of the rocket engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse

If you have a fuel/oxidizer with a specific impulse of about 360, you
have a exhaust velocity of g*I = 3.5 km/s.

So, your rocket mass ratio from LEO to the Moon

So, the KE from LEO to the moon is exp(5.7/3.5) = 5.1 This means that the
rocket to get you to the moon, when fueled, is 5.1 times the mass
actually delivered to the moon surface.

On the other hand, from LEO to Mars with the same rocket fuel is exp
(3.8/3.5) =~ 3.0 So, you can put a lot more mass on Mars than you can on
the moon with the same rocket from LEO.

What I said is true, and what you said... yeah. right.

On Apr 24, 8:35*am, Robert Collins wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 02:58:44PM -0700, BradGuth wrote:

[Apollo]

Truth be told, we obviously can't seem to deal with Eden/Earth, much
less afford to take on Mars, and we certainly can't put any physical
claims or extract benefits from our highly unusual Selene/moon, which
makes this another highly bogus topic.

I'll say. *My analysis of the situation suggests that we're all
looking at the wrong planets. *A couple of years ago I was convinced
that Jupiter and Saturn (and their moons) offered the best place to
situate human habitation. *Fuel and water is plentiful, and the
Earth/Moon system close enough for support operations but far enough
away to offer a degree of socio-political freedom for resident/colonists.

Now we know that Saturn/Jupiter exploration and development is less
favorable as an end in itself than a way to make Pluto-Charon
operations more effective. *Ten years ago we should have been
launching nuke-plants, tooling, and indispensable materials to low-
energy warehouse orbits around the Pluto-Charon system, via gravity
assist by intervening solar bodies. *Existing proven launch vehicles
existed in 2000 to bootstrap the whole affair, with improving rocket
technology supporting the later manned missions.

But nooooooo! *We had to have a recession instead.



And the great mutual ruse/sting of their mutually perpetrated cold-war
century continues, as though a white Zionist god and all of his
kingdom were on the same side of the USSR/USA coinage, the other side
depicting an unmentionable private body part at full erection.

We’re seeing such bogus topics posted that even a failing 5th grader
can easily interpret as to what a total crock of mainstream infowar
tactics is going on. *Too bad that BHO is going to have little
budgetary option but to cut our NASA budget sown to the bone
(eliminating most everything except the most pressing terrestrial
related matters), thanks mostly to their corrupt politics and their
SEC approved Ponzi Madoff and Big Mother Ponzi AIG, because it’s all
situated in the nearest toilet.

Just checked GM stock, and lo and behold it's almost worth as much a
toilet paper, along with a number of other public bailout investments
going onto the nearest toilet. *That's OK, because what's another
million of middle and upper class unemployed, plus at least another
half million of preexisting UAW retirements and seeing everyone’s
medical benefits trashed, all because of our corrupt and greedy UAW
and faith-based corrupted government agencies of loot and benefit
hording era. *Chances of UAW and GM survival are looking grim, as
though now they got next to nothing outside of whatever chapter 7
manages to liquidate. *Way to go warlord republicans and faith-based
puppet masters.

Besides chapter 11s, how many chapter 7s per business day are we
averaging?

Too many to count accurately.

The tanking economy's got it's hooks in your brain, Brad. *Focus.

Robert Collins

I agree, far too many brain hooks.

My focus is upon Venus, and there's even good observationology reason
and cause for this. Secondly, there's much we can do with our Selene/
moon and its L1. Thirdly, we can eventually relocate our Selene/moon
out to Earth L1, because that'll cool us off.

~ BG

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:56:03 -0700, BradGuth wrote:

On Apr 24, 8:35Â*am, Robert Collins wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 02:58:44PM -0700, BradGuth wrote:

[Apollo]

Truth be told, we obviously can't seem to deal with Eden/Earth, much
less afford to take on Mars, and we certainly can't put any physical
claims or extract benefits from our highly unusual Selene/moon, which
makes this another highly bogus topic.

I'll say. Â*My analysis of the situation suggests that we're all looking
at the wrong planets. Â*A couple of years ago I was convinced that
Jupiter and Saturn (and their moons) offered the best place to situate
human habitation. Â*Fuel and water is plentiful, and the Earth/Moon
system close enough for support operations but far enough away to offer
a degree of socio-political freedom for resident/colonists.

Now we know that Saturn/Jupiter exploration and development is less
favorable as an end in itself than a way to make Pluto-Charon
operations more effective. Â*Ten years ago we should have been launching
nuke-plants, tooling, and indispensable materials to low- energy
warehouse orbits around the Pluto-Charon system, via gravity assist by
intervening solar bodies. Â*Existing proven launch vehicles existed in
2000 to bootstrap the whole affair, with improving rocket technology
supporting the later manned missions.

But nooooooo! Â*We had to have a recession instead.



And the great mutual ruse/sting of their mutually perpetrated
cold-war century continues, as though a white Zionist god and all of
his kingdom were on the same side of the USSR/USA coinage, the other
side depicting an unmentionable private body part at full erection.

We’re seeing such bogus topics posted that even a failing 5th grader
can easily interpret as to what a total crock of mainstream infowar
tactics is going on. Â*Too bad that BHO is going to have little
budgetary option but to cut our NASA budget sown to the bone
(eliminating most everything except the most pressing terrestrial
related matters), thanks mostly to their corrupt politics and their
SEC approved Ponzi Madoff and Big Mother Ponzi AIG, because it’s all
situated in the nearest toilet.

Just checked GM stock, and lo and behold it's almost worth as much a
toilet paper, along with a number of other public bailout investments
going onto the nearest toilet. Â*That's OK, because what's another
million of middle and upper class unemployed, plus at least another
half million of preexisting UAW retirements and seeing everyone’s
medical benefits trashed, all because of our corrupt and greedy UAW
and faith-based corrupted government agencies of loot and benefit
hording era. Â*Chances of UAW and GM survival are looking grim, as
though now they got next to nothing outside of whatever chapter 7
manages to liquidate. Â*Way to go warlord republicans and faith-based
puppet masters.

Besides chapter 11s, how many chapter 7s per business day are we
averaging?

Too many to count accurately.

The tanking economy's got it's hooks in your brain, Brad. Â*Focus.

Robert Collins

I agree, far too many brain hooks.

My focus is upon Venus, and there's even good observationology reason
and cause for this. Secondly, there's much we can do with our Selene/
moon and its L1. Thirdly, we can eventually relocate our Selene/moon
out to Earth L1, because that'll cool us off.

~ BG

You can't live on Venus... Too hot. It doesn't rotate like Earth, and the
pressure is too great. Venus is pretty much a pipe dream. Mars would be
much easier to colonize.

The last part, about moving the moon, that's gibberish.

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:14:34 -0500, Marvin the Martian wrote:

You can't live on Venus... Too hot. It doesn't rotate like Earth, and
the pressure is too great. Venus is pretty much a pipe dream. Mars would
be much easier to colonize.

The last part, about moving the moon, that's gibberish.

So, anyway, plans to land on Venus are a joke, like landing on the sun.

We can get to Mars easier than we can get to the moon. Energy wise, it
takes less energy to go to the surface of mars than to go to the surface
of the moon, by far. This means you can put more mass on Mars than the
moon if using the same rocket.

Anything beyond Mars cost too much energy to reach from Earth.

Mars, unlike the moon, has carbon and water. Now, it sounds like a joke,
but a carbon based life form made mostly of water would be utterly stupid
to try and colonize a rock like our moon which has no carbon and very
little water. You'd think a life form that can develop rockets would
realize this. No... it appears it isn't understood.

Mars has a 24.5 hour day, almost perfect for Earth based life forms. The
moon? Forget it! You're in the dark 2 weeks at a time. You're not setting
up greenhouses on the moon.

So, if you want a space outpost, Mars is it! A mars colony would have
easy access to the asteroids for mining, which could more than pay for a
Mars colony. Mars would be the gateway to Jupiter and its moons. It is
actually possible to build a space elevator out of common Kevlar on Mars,
thus one day, space access from Mars would be incredibly cheap.

Mars has the science as well: it is so like Earth, it may have had life
on it. Recent methane releases hint strongly at life. It would greatly
advance biological science if we could study Mars life.

On Apr 24, 8:14*pm, Marvin the Martian wrote:
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 18:56:03 -0700, BradGuth wrote:
On Apr 24, 8:35*am, Robert Collins wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 02:58:44PM -0700, BradGuth wrote:

[Apollo]

Truth be told, we obviously can't seem to deal with Eden/Earth, much
less afford to take on Mars, and we certainly can't put any physical
claims or extract benefits from our highly unusual Selene/moon, which
makes this another highly bogus topic.

I'll say. *My analysis of the situation suggests that we're all looking
at the wrong planets. *A couple of years ago I was convinced that
Jupiter and Saturn (and their moons) offered the best place to situate
human habitation. *Fuel and water is plentiful, and the Earth/Moon
system close enough for support operations but far enough away to offer
a degree of socio-political freedom for resident/colonists.

Now we know that Saturn/Jupiter exploration and development is less
favorable as an end in itself than a way to make Pluto-Charon
operations more effective. *Ten years ago we should have been launching
nuke-plants, tooling, and indispensable materials to low- energy
warehouse orbits around the Pluto-Charon system, via gravity assist by
intervening solar bodies. *Existing proven launch vehicles existed in
2000 to bootstrap the whole affair, with improving rocket technology
supporting the later manned missions.

But nooooooo! *We had to have a recession instead.

And the great mutual ruse/sting of their mutually perpetrated
cold-war century continues, as though a white Zionist god and all of
his kingdom were on the same side of the USSR/USA coinage, the other
side depicting an unmentionable private body part at full erection.

We’re seeing such bogus topics posted that even a failing 5th grader
can easily interpret as to what a total crock of mainstream infowar
tactics is going on. *Too bad that BHO is going to have little
budgetary option but to cut our NASA budget sown to the bone
(eliminating most everything except the most pressing terrestrial
related matters), thanks mostly to their corrupt politics and their
SEC approved Ponzi Madoff and Big Mother Ponzi AIG, because it’s all
situated in the nearest toilet.

Just checked GM stock, and lo and behold it's almost worth as much a
toilet paper, along with a number of other public bailout investments
going onto the nearest toilet. *That's OK, because what's another
million of middle and upper class unemployed, plus at least another
half million of preexisting UAW retirements and seeing everyone’s
medical benefits trashed, all because of our corrupt and greedy UAW
and faith-based corrupted government agencies of loot and benefit
hording era. *Chances of UAW and GM survival are looking grim, as
though now they got next to nothing outside of whatever chapter 7
manages to liquidate. *Way to go warlord republicans and faith-based
puppet masters.

Besides chapter 11s, how many chapter 7s per business day are we
averaging?

Too many to count accurately.

The tanking economy's got it's hooks in your brain, Brad. *Focus.

Robert Collins

I agree, far too many brain hooks.

My focus is upon Venus, and there's even good observationology reason
and cause for this. *Secondly, there's much we can do with our Selene/
moon and its L1. *Thirdly, we can eventually relocate our Selene/moon
out to Earth L1, because that'll cool us off.

*~ BG

You can't live on Venus... Too hot. It doesn't rotate like Earth, and the
pressure is too great. Venus is pretty much a pipe dream. Mars would be
much easier to colonize.

Sadly, you don't know basic physics, nor how to take advantage of any
gift horse, so to speak. At any rate, your mainstream cultivated
obfuscation and denial of being in denial is noted.


The last part, about moving the moon, that's gibberish.

Speak for yourself, because others having passed their 5th grade
finals are not so convinced.

~ BG