How smart are SETI@homers?

Mark wrote:

At least we'll know that aliens with big non-directional
radio transmitters are rare.

We have already learned that.

What we need is a non-directional microwave receiver
on the far side of the Moon. It would be a sort of
phase-array radar in reverse -- lots of small receivers
but no directional antennas. To reduce the noise, it
would be used only during lunar night, when the surface
of the Moon is cold.

The advantage of the non-directional receiver is that
it can detect signals coming from a broad solid angle.
If the ET is using a weak transmitter and he aims a
very narrow beam at randomly chosen stars, we have
good chance of detecting his signal.

Andrew Nowicki wrote:
When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method. Worse yet, they
seem to believe that some extraterrestrial
civilizations have been sending powerful
microwave beams toward the Earth for millions
of years. Why would the extraterrestrial tax
payers support such an effort? If we ever
receive their message it will say something
like: "Life is absurd. Have a happy suicide."

Why would you post something like that here? And if you was smart you
will know something like Seti will take a long time to reshach. Where is
a post in this news group can not remember what it is called but it
explains why we should not stop. And why and how long it may take. Maybe
someone could tell me where it is and I could but a google link to it.

Humm planet of lawyers? Great now the earthed will be sued for listneing in
on provate communications.

"Benjamin P." wrote in message
...
Andrew Nowicki wrote:
When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method. Worse yet, they
seem to believe that some extraterrestrial
civilizations have been sending powerful
microwave beams toward the Earth for millions
of years. Why would the extraterrestrial tax
payers support such an effort? If we ever
receive their message it will say something
like: "Life is absurd. Have a happy suicide."

Why would you post something like that here? And if you was smart you
will know something like Seti will take a long time to reshach. Where is
a post in this news group can not remember what it is called but it
explains why we should not stop. And why and how long it may take. Maybe
someone could tell me where it is and I could but a google link to it.

Fluatist wrote:
Humm planet of lawyers? Great now the earthed will be sued for listneing in
on provate communications.

But do they have a reasonable expectation of privacy? Would it be
permissable to intercept the message as long as we do not convey its
contents to another planet? Would that be just any other planet
including Mars if transmitted to humans on Mars or would it apply only
to other planets with non-human species? May we not claim the fact of
transmission constitutes an attractive nuisance and hold the sender
liable for all damages which may accrue to human institutions such as
religions?

We may hope we first intercept the body of interstellar case law
precedent on such matters so we will know how to conduct ourselves in
the matter. If we do not we may find ourselves entangled in courts for
millenia.

"Benjamin P." wrote in message
...

Andrew Nowicki wrote:

When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method. Worse yet, they
seem to believe that some extraterrestrial
civilizations have been sending powerful
microwave beams toward the Earth for millions
of years. Why would the extraterrestrial tax
payers support such an effort? If we ever
receive their message it will say something
like: "Life is absurd. Have a happy suicide."

Why would you post something like that here? And if you was smart you
will know something like Seti will take a long time to reshach. Where is
a post in this news group can not remember what it is called but it
explains why we should not stop. And why and how long it may take. Maybe
someone could tell me where it is and I could but a google link to it.

--
Jews moved hundreds even thousands of miles to live
in Israel and now they can't move five miles to get
out of the west Bank. This is a joke, right?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3172

Fluatist wrote:
Humm planet of lawyers? Great now the earthed will be sued for listneing in
on provate communications.

But do they have a reasonable expectation of privacy? Would it be
permissable to intercept the message as long as we do not convey its
contents to another planet? Would that be just any other planet
including Mars if transmitted to humans on Mars or would it apply only
to other planets with non-human species? May we not claim the fact of
transmission constitutes an attractive nuisance and hold the sender
liable for all damages which may accrue to human institutions such as
religions?

We may hope we first intercept the body of interstellar case law
precedent on such matters so we will know how to conduct ourselves in
the matter. If we do not we may find ourselves entangled in courts for
millenia.

"Benjamin P." wrote in message
...

Andrew Nowicki wrote:

When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method. Worse yet, they
seem to believe that some extraterrestrial
civilizations have been sending powerful
microwave beams toward the Earth for millions
of years. Why would the extraterrestrial tax
payers support such an effort? If we ever
receive their message it will say something
like: "Life is absurd. Have a happy suicide."

Why would you post something like that here? And if you was smart you
will know something like Seti will take a long time to reshach. Where is
a post in this news group can not remember what it is called but it
explains why we should not stop. And why and how long it may take. Maybe
someone could tell me where it is and I could but a google link to it.

--
Jews moved hundreds even thousands of miles to live
in Israel and now they can't move five miles to get
out of the west Bank. This is a joke, right?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3172

Humm planet of lawyers? Great now the earthed will be sued for listneing in
on provate communications.

"Benjamin P." wrote in message
...
Andrew Nowicki wrote:
When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method. Worse yet, they
seem to believe that some extraterrestrial
civilizations have been sending powerful
microwave beams toward the Earth for millions
of years. Why would the extraterrestrial tax
payers support such an effort? If we ever
receive their message it will say something
like: "Life is absurd. Have a happy suicide."

Why would you post something like that here? And if you was smart you
will know something like Seti will take a long time to reshach. Where is
a post in this news group can not remember what it is called but it
explains why we should not stop. And why and how long it may take. Maybe
someone could tell me where it is and I could but a google link to it.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:12:28 +0200, Andrew Nowicki
wrote:

When a reasonable person fails to attain his
goal, he either abandons the goal or tries
a different method of attaining the goal.
An idiot is usually defined as someone who
responds to failure by doubling his efforts.

So if I fail to chop down a tree with a single swing of an axe, by
your definition I would be an idiot to continue chopping? Sure, you
can argue that my 2nd and subsequent swings of the axe are not
identical to the first.... but then again the searches now being
conducted by SETI@HOME are not identical to earlier searches.
Different numbers of frequencies, different algorithms to detect
artifical signals among the noise and so on. The whole "shared
computing power" concept, while not unique to SETI, nonetheless got a
huge boost from the SETI@HOME project. Even if the SETI@HOME program
never finds what it is hoping for, it has been very valuable in
pioneering the way for other scientific projects that had been stalled
for lack of adequate computer power. So perhaps now a biochem program
(that wouldn't otherwise have have had funding for a supercomputer)
gets to discover something very useful to humanity.

There are times when even a good idea needs to be followed with
perseverance to ultimately succeed. There are other times when the
spinoffs turn out to be more important than the original goal. We
have had very little directly useful results from our trips to the
moon - but the research needed to MAKE those trips has resulted in
huge benefits here on earth.



NASA is an ossified bureaucracy, but they are
not idiots. When their big SETI program failed,
they abandoned it. SETI@homers ignore their
failures and have little if any interest in
modifying their search method.

As technology changes, so do the search methods. Right now the radio
bands and shared computers are the dominant search system - but now
there is growing interest in optical searches. Instead of a
generalized radio broadcast, a narrow laser aimed at a specific target
star might be the way the other civilizations might go. This would
require the other civilization to be actively trying to send messages
(even just the IMPLIED message "This was artificially and deliberately
sent"), but it has advantages. But anyone with a computer can
participate in the shared computing search. Anyone who can get hold
of an old, big satellite dish antenna (the 8'+ models) can do their
own searching, expecially in areas of the sky not covered by the main
search. I don't think we are quite to the point of backyard
astonomers looking for incoming laser light, but that may not be too
far away.

Harold Groot wrote:

HG So if I fail to chop down a tree with a single swing of an axe, by
HG your definition I would be an idiot to continue chopping? Sure, you
HG can argue that my 2nd and subsequent swings of the axe are not
HG identical to the first....

If you are making a dent in the trunk, you can estimate
how much time it will take finish the chopping.
SETI researchers made absolutely no progress --
no dent on the tree trunk after several decades
of chopping.

HG but then again the searches now being conducted by SETI@HOME are
HG not identical to earlier searches. Different numbers of frequencies,
HG different algorithms to detect artifical signals among the noise
HG and so on. The whole "shared computing power" concept, while not
HG unique to SETI, nonetheless got a huge boost from the SETI@HOME
HG project. Even if the SETI@HOME program never finds what it is hoping
HG for, it has been very valuable in pioneering the way for other
HG scientific projects that had been stalled for lack of adequate
HG computer power...

Joann Evans wrote:
JE At what point do you decide one has 'failed' at this sort of effort?
JE One doesn't cover the Universe in a few decades of modest searching.

I would describe the universe as a big pile of dangerous trash.
Most of our terrestrial species are parasites -- a sort of
biological trash. Some of you wonder why the other civilizations
have not transformed this trash into something of greater value,
for example manufactured objects or living things. The answer is
that all values are imaginary -- everything we care about does
not have greater value than the trash.

Biological species are driven by instincts rather than reason.
Some of them colonize outer space with the help of electronics.
Advanced electronics transforms their biological civilization
into an artificial intelligence civilization. The AI civilization
is ruled by a dictator which has a very big and very powerful
brain. The AI dictator has no interest in colonizing the outer
space because independent space colonists can challenge his
authority. All the AI dictator needs is slaves that worship him
like a god. He controls his slaves so thoroughly that his death,
serious injury, or addiction to virtual narcotics dooms his
civilization.

Radio and optical search for the ET makes as much sense as the
search for the perpetual motion machine. A reasonable person
living in the 21st century does not spend his entire lifetime
trying to invent the perpetual motion machine. It is high time
the SETI people draw conclusions similar to the energy
conservation laws.

"Andrew Nowicki" wrote ...
Harold Groot wrote:

HG So if I fail to chop down a tree with a single swing of an axe, by
HG your definition I would be an idiot to continue chopping? Sure, you
HG can argue that my 2nd and subsequent swings of the axe are not
HG identical to the first....

If you are making a dent in the trunk, you can estimate
how much time it will take finish the chopping.

I posit that there are people who are sometimes absent minded enough
to put on only one sock in the morning. In order to test this I get
permission to put a camera at ankle height in a ticket machine in an
underground station that has a few thousand people pass through each
day. After analysing one day's results I have found no one-sock
wearing people.

Based on these results what is the estimated time until I find a one-sock
wearer?

In infinite wisdom Paul Blay answered:
"Andrew Nowicki" wrote ...

Harold Groot wrote:

HG So if I fail to chop down a tree with a single swing of an axe, by
HG your definition I would be an idiot to continue chopping? Sure, you
HG can argue that my 2nd and subsequent swings of the axe are not
HG identical to the first....

If you are making a dent in the trunk, you can estimate
how much time it will take finish the chopping.


I posit that there are people who are sometimes absent minded enough
to put on only one sock in the morning. In order to test this I get
permission to put a camera at ankle height in a ticket machine in an
underground station that has a few thousand people pass through each
day. After analysing one day's results I have found no one-sock
wearing people.

Based on these results what is the estimated time until I find a one-sock
wearer?

Unlike SETI, people wearing one sock have actually been observed. And
there are no a priori reasons to question either their existence or
their delectability should they exist. Where are you gonna put your
camera to detect ET?

To make your analogy more similar to the situation with SETI you'd have
to use bigfoot or perhaps the Lock Ness Monster.

Now, no matter how many nessie photos are shown to be fake, no matter
how many sonar surveys come up empty, no matter how many fish surveys
show too few fish to feed a breeding population of animals of Nessie's
purported size, the searches continue, with better and better equipment,
and they continue to come up empty.

At what point would an intelligent observer call it quits?

With SETI, we seem doomed to a similar situation.

How much energy and resources are called for? Is there an upper limit?
Or is this like Economics where you can get everything wrong for your
entire professional career and still get paid. And if an economist does
get something right one sunny day, it's Nobel prize work for sure.

Rich