SS1 flight set for June 21

(Peter Stickney) wrote:
SpaceShip 1 is an impressive project. Make no mistake about that.
But it's a very limited system, for a very limited purpose. While I'd
be more than happy to bet that they'll win the X-Prize, it's not going
to advance the State of the Art. White Knight, on the other hand, may
end up with a useful post X-Prize career hauling payloads to high
altitudes, for purposes such as Atmospheric Sampling or UV Astronomy.

One of the most thoughtful and reasonable posts yet. I may steal this
next time I take on those zealots at slashdot. (I really wish more
the clued in regulars here would join in there.. Stuffie has more
common sense and intelligence than they collectively do.)

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

In article ,
(Derek Lyons) wrote:

(Peter Stickney) wrote:
SpaceShip 1 is an impressive project. Make no mistake about that.
But it's a very limited system, for a very limited purpose. While I'd
be more than happy to bet that they'll win the X-Prize, it's not going
to advance the State of the Art. White Knight, on the other hand, may
end up with a useful post X-Prize career hauling payloads to high
altitudes, for purposes such as Atmospheric Sampling or UV Astronomy.

One of the most thoughtful and reasonable posts yet. I may steal this
next time I take on those zealots at slashdot. (I really wish more
the clued in regulars here would join in there.. Stuffie has more
common sense and intelligence than they collectively do.)

I keep my mouth shut most of the time there; it's far, far too easy to
get drowned in the noise when every single damn topic gets nigh on 250
posts in just a couple hours (the first fifteen or twenty all being
clueless "FP, loozer biatches!!!!!!")

Consequently, since I post infrequently and metamoderate very carefully,
I have excellent karma . . . :-)

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
Columbia Loss FAQ:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

In sci.space.policy Herb Schaltegger wrote:

This is from the X-Prize website:

"The ANSARI X PRIZE is a $10,000,000 prize to jumpstart the space
tourism industry through competition between the most talented
entrepreneurs and rocket experts in the world. The $10 Million cash
prize will be awarded to the first team that:
- Privately finances, builds & launches a spaceship, able to carry
three people to 100 kilometers (62.5 miles)
- Returns safely to Earth
- Repeats the launch with the same ship within 2 weeks"

Pardon me for extrapolating that "able to carry three people" part into
actually carrying three people. :-/

As for reading the details at time, sorry,

The details are at:
http://www.xprize.org/teams/guidelines.html
and on the bottom of this post.

The relevant part is guideline 3:

3. The flight vehicle must be flown twice within a 14-day
period. Each flight must carry at least one person, to
minimum altitude of 100 km (62 miles). The flight vehicle
must be built with the capacity (weight and volume) to
carry a minimum of 3 adults of height 188 cm (6 feet 2
inches) and weight 90 kg (198 pounds) each. Three people
of this size or larger must be able to enter, occupy, and
be fastened into the flight vehicle on Earth's surface
prior to take-off, and equivalent ballast must be carried
in-flight if the number of persons on-board during flight
is less than 3 persons.

It would probably be a good idea if the rules specify that those
3 people must be inside the closed flight vehicle for a period of
time equal or greater than the flight time. The "Ansari X Prize
Rules Committee" can still do that prior to the first attempt.

BTW, from the FAQ at:
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero...q_text_gen.htm

"How do you keep the air breathable?
There are three components to keeping the cockpit environment
suitable for flight. One, oxygen needs to be added at a
small rate for that used by breathing. This is done with
a small bottle carried in the cabin. Two, the carbon dioxide
from the exhaled air needs to be removed and this is done
by using an absorber system. Finally, the humidity is
controlled by passing the air through another absorber
material that removes water vapor, keeping the cabin cool
and dry."

I tried to find a photo of the cockpit. In the photo section, the
best I found was this one:
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero...WTPS2_1024.jpg

But elsewhere I found this one, where you can see 3 persons in the
cockpit of White Knight (Scaled says that it is equal to the cockpit
of the Spaceship One).

http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero...--WK-p2_02.jpg
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero..._knight_p2.htm
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tiero...night%20p2.pdf

I dont know if the the April 21, 2003 issue of Aviation Week &
Space Technology magazine has good photos or diagrams.

The complete X-prize guidelines:

ANSARI X PRIZE Competition Guidelines

Guidelines vs. Rules:
This document presents the final guidelines for the ANSARI X PRIZE
Competition.

Goals of the Competition:
The purpose of the ANSARI X PRIZE is to promote the development
and flight of spaceships able to provide low-cost commercial
transport of humans into space. These preliminary guidelines have
been written with this intent and will be further drafted, interpreted
and defined by the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules Committee towards this end.
Once the rules are finalized, all judging will be conducted by an
independent Review Board. All decisions of the ANSARI X PRIZE Review
Board will be final and binding upon all participants.

1. As a condition of entering and becoming a participant in the
ANSARI X PRIZE Competition, entrants will be required to first
agree to be bound and abide by the rules, decisions and interpretations
which will be further promulgated by the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules
Committee and its designated representatives. Entrants will also
be required to agree to fully cooperate with the ANSARI X PRIZE
Review Board in monitoring ANSARI X PRIZE entrants and competition
requirements.

2. Flight vehicles will have to be privately financed and built.
Entrants will be precluded from using a launch vehicle substantially
developed under a government contract or grant. Entrants will be
prohibited from receiving any direct funding, subsidies, and grants
of money, goods, or services from any government (or otherwise
tax-supported entity). Entrants will be permitted to utilize
government facilities if access to such facilities is generally
available to all entrants. Any such goods or services used in
connection with the competition must be available to other entrants
on similar terms. Entrants will be permitted to utilize subsystems
previously developed by a government agency that are currently
available on a commercial or equal-access government-surplus basis,
or for which manufacturing rights and specifications are available
on an equal-access basis

3. The flight vehicle must be flown twice within a 14-day period.
Each flight must carry at least one person, to minimum altitude of
100 km (62 miles). The flight vehicle must be built with the capacity
(weight and volume) to carry a minimum of 3 adults of height 188
cm (6 feet 2 inches) and weight 90 kg (198 pounds) each. Three
people of this size or larger must be able to enter, occupy, and
be fastened into the flight vehicle on Earth's surface prior to
take-off, and equivalent ballast must be carried in-flight if the
number of persons on-board during flight is less than 3 persons.

4. The second flight must demonstrate economical vehicle reusability.
It is the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules Committee's intent that the winning
flight vehicle should exhibit sufficiently low per-flight costs
such that the flight vehicle will support low-cost space access.
Toward this end, no more than 10% of the flight vehicle's first-flight
non-propellant mass may be replaced between the two flights.

5. The crew must return to the Earth's surface from both flights
in good health as reasonably defined and judged by the ANSARI X
PRIZE Review Board. The flight vehicle must return from both flights
substantially intact, as defined by and in the sole judgment of
the ANSARI X PRIZE Review Board, such that the vehicle is reusable.

6. Entrants must specify and provide the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules
Committee with their take-off and landing location, and the date
of their launch, not less than 30 days prior to any flight attempt.

7. The ANSARI X PRIZE Competition is international in nature and
is open to all qualifying entrants who agree to be bound and abide
by the rules which shall be further promulgated by the ANSARI X
PRIZE Rules Committee and administered by the ANSARI X PRIZE Review
Board.

8. In addition to signing any releases, rules, and agreements that
the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules Committee may require, all entrants for
the ANSARI X PRIZE will also be required to timely submit a letter
of intent to the Review Board which fully details their respective
compliance with the rules and regulations, the general nature and
configuration of their vehicle, and their intended flight plans.
All releases, agreements, and letters of intent will have to be
received, accepted and acknowledged by the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules
Committee during a time frame to be specified but, in no event,
later than three months prior to the respective entrant's first
flight attempt. The ANSARI X PRIZE Review Board will be the final
arbiter on whether an entrant complies with the rules and regulations.
It is the intent of the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules Committee that all
communications and technical information disclosed to the Review
Board which reflects confidential information, except as otherwise
agreed, will be held in confidence. The ANSARI X PRIZE Review Board
members, or a duly designated Review Board representative, must
monitor all flight attempts, and any period of time in-between
scheduled flights.

9. ANSARI X PRIZE entrants will be required to comply with, or
obtain waivers, for any and all international, national, regional,
or local laws or regulations, of any kind, which pertain to or
govern any activities conducted by the entrants in connection with
the competition including, but not limited to, the manufacture,
construction, testing or launch of their respective flight vehicles.

10. Entrants will be required to carry an ANSARI X PRIZE-provided
flight recorder to monitor the flight profile and altitude achieved.

11. All ANSARI X PRIZE entrants shall be required to prominently
display the service marked/trademarked ANSARI X PRIZE® and the NEW
SPIRIT OF ST. LOUISSM logos (of size and color to be prescribed)
on their flight vehicles.

12. The general guidelines set forth herein, although intended to
provide a preliminary summary of the anticipated rules of the ANSARI
X PRIZE Competition, are expressly subject to change. Furthermore,
in order for a person to qualify as an entrant, among other criteria
yet to be set, any such entrant must first sign any releases, rules,
and agreements that the ANSARI X PRIZE Rules Committee may require.

All Officers, Trustees, Review Board, and Rules Committee members
of the X Prize Foundation as of 18 May 1996 are expressly prohibited
from competing for the ANSARI X PRIZE.


Guideline Questions:

1. Industrial Bonds

Can an ANSARI X PRIZE Team utilize industrial development bond
financing for the development of its ship without violating the
private financing requirement of the competition?

Generally Yes.

Industrial development bonds can be used as a financing mechanism
for ANSARI X PRIZE teams. Industrial development bonds provide
tax-free revenues to investors. Companies usually have to locate
a significant part of their operations within a city or state in
order to qualify for industrial revenue bond financing. In return,
the state or local government approves the company for tax free
revenue bond treatment. The funds raised by these bonds come from
private investors rather than from government sources.

The intention of the Private Financing rule is to exclude
government-sponsored vehicles from the ANSARI X PRIZE Competition.
Industrial development bonds are not a government grant or contract
but are a standard financial obligation between investors and the
company. Therefore conventional industrial revenue bonds are not
excluded as a financing mechanism for teams competing for the ANSARI
X PRIZE.

2. Balloon Launching

If an ANSARI X PRIZE vehicle is launched through a balloon in such
a manner as to destroy the balloon envelope, will the mass of the
envelope be counted as part of the non-propellant mass of the system
for purposes of the "10% rule?"

Yes, the mass of the discarded envelope will be counted.

No more than 10% of the non-propellant mass of the vehicle may be
changed between qualifying flights for the ANSARI X PRIZE Competition.
The purpose of this rule is to encourage reusability and lead to
the development of spacecraft that can be operated in a commercially
viable manner.


--
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~rps/

..pt is Portugal| `Whom the gods love die young'-Menander (342-292 BC)
Europe | Villeneuve 50-82, Toivonen 56-86, Senna 60-94

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 00:13:31 -0400, Kevin Willoughby
wrote:

In article , says...
SpaceShip 1 is an impressive project. Make no mistake about that.
But it's a very limited system, for a very limited purpose.

True. But the very fact that it is named Space Ship *One* implies there
will be a Space Ship Two...

....Not necessarily. As Dean Motter hypothesized in his _Prisoner_
sequel for DC, "does the existence of a Number Two necessate the
existence of a Number One?"


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

SpaceShip 1 is an impressive project. Make no mistake about that.
But it's a very limited system, for a very limited purpose. While I'd
be more than happy to bet that they'll win the X-Prize, it's not going
to advance the State of the Art.

Nonsense -- it's already advanced the state of the art. Just a few of
the new technologies developed and demonstrated:

- first manned vehicle with a hybrid rocket motor
- first rocket plane to use innovative "shuttlecock" configuration for
stable re-entry
- innovative high-visibility vacuum-rated cabin

In addition, if "art" includes not just the final vehicle but the
development and production processes as well, it's certainly advanced
the state of the art significantly by developing a reusable suborbital
three-person craft for about $25M.

White Knight, on the other hand, may
end up with a useful post X-Prize career hauling payloads to high
altitudes, for purposes such as Atmospheric Sampling or UV Astronomy.

Unlikely; White Knight's purpose is to carry SS1. Both will have useful
and productive careers as research craft, and then be retired as new,
derivative craft are produced.

Best,
- Joe

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Joseph J. Strout Check out the Mac Web Directory: |
| http://www.macwebdir.com |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'

In article ,
Herb Schaltegger wrote:
Why did the test launces of ELVs use dummy upper stages, and no real
payload? Why put ANYTHING on them...oh, because that wouldn't be a
meaningful test of the rest of the system, and wouldn't prove anything
with respect to real operations, later.

Well, didn't Sealaunch put a revenue-generating payload onto it's first
Zenit?

No. The first Sea Launch flight carried a mass dummy. They would have
*liked* to carry a revenue payload, and at first they had one, Panamsat's
Galaxy 11. In fact, Panamsat was so confident in Boeing that they also
put Galaxy 10 on the first Delta III... which was lost. And then a Zenit
failed (with a quarter of the whole Globalstar constellation aboard). At
which point, Panamsat and its insurers went into a Sea Launch planning
meeting carrying long pointy sticks :-) :-) :-), and after the screaming
was over, Galaxy 11 was rebooked on Ariane and Sea Launch gritted its
teeth and launched the Galaxy 11 mass dummy they'd been using for
facilities checkout.

Incidentally, responding to the original comment, it's no longer common
for ELV tests to use dummy upper stages. It's too difficult to simulate
the mass properties of upper stages well with dummies, plus it loses
opportunities to test the upper stages -- if you think the lower stage is
likely to work, it makes sense to put live upper stages on top, and test
them too.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

In article ,
Derek Lyons wrote:
Or to those who realize that this kind of incremental approach is the
only way to get there, since no one seems willing to cough up the
private R&D money for a fully orbital vehicle from the start.

That's a nice soundbite, but there is nothing incremental involved at
all. Either you can reach and return safely from orbit, or you
cannot...

Derek, you persist in confusing incremental development of vehicles with
incremental development of organizations. The dominant problems for
*private ventures* in reaching orbit are not technical, but financial and
regulatory. Establishing technical credibility, successful experience,
and a regulatory track record is a key *incremental* step toward being
able to attempt an orbital vehicle.

Only if you are the government, or have government sponsorship, are the
technical problems dominant. Only in that case does the *technical*
difference between suborbital and orbital make the former doubtful as
a step toward the latter.

The government-aerospace mindset goes deep, but it is possible to break
out of it, if you try.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 20:26:59 -0500, Pat Flannery wrote:

Still, it's hard to figure out what exactly else it can do besides the
little "hop up into space" type flight.

New Pool! Place your bets:

1) How long before the first authentic "SS1 To The Moon?" post in the
sci.space hierarchy?

2) How long before the first authentic "SS1 To Mars?" post in the
sci.space hierarchy?

...but it exists for the sake of ego as much as anything else; let's see
it try to go Mach 6 in the atmosphere sometime....

Did someone set Rutan a goal of Mach 6 private flight... and back it up
with money?

Pat

--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"

On 2004-06-05, Derek Lyons wrote:

One of the most thoughtful and reasonable posts yet. I may steal this
next time I take on those zealots at slashdot. (I really wish more
the clued in regulars here would join in there.. Stuffie has more
common sense and intelligence than they collectively do.)

I must admit, I've often found Slashdot to be unreadable; the signal to
noise ratio is terrible.

(and they didn't get the joke with whitespace, which annoyed me -
http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ is not an April Fools, honest...)

--
-Andrew Gray

In article ,
Pat Flannery wrote:
Just done in a small fraction of the cost of the X15 and able
to carry more people.

...but it exists for the sake of ego as much as anything else; let's see
it try to go Mach 6 in the atmosphere sometime....

But why would you want to do that?

Note that even the X-15 ended up struggling to answer that question, after
the steady climb of combat aircraft up the Mach-number scale stopped.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |