Debris found in Southern CA Desert - Anyone know what it might be?

Pat Flannery wrote:


And unfortunately quite a few that have bulges on them also. Assuming
that this _is_ a vertical fin, then we need to find something that has
matching panel layout, and those ovoid shaped access panels at its
base visible in this photo:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
At least this should be easier than trying to find a plan of the panel
layout on the bottom of a wing; most three-views show the top, front,
and side of the aircraft- but not the bottom.
I'll go looking!


AND I'LL FIND IT ALSO!
Dean Peeters was right- it's the vertical fin off of a Vought F-8
Crusader, (or possibly a A-7 Corsair II...but I'm betting on the F-8).
Look at the crashsite photo, and note the paneling that's shifted
backwards just under the bulge, so that it aligns with the front of the
fin rather than its overall shape:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
.....now look at this photo of the vertical fin on a F-8 (French Navy in
this case):
http://www.aeroslides.com/modelpubli...8p/F-8P-49.jpg
Everything matches; hinge location, bump, panel arrangement, circular
access panels at base of fin. The only difference is that the French
navy used different nav gear on theirs, so that the bump is rectangular
in section, rather than the more rounded shape of the one on the
late-model U. S. Navy F-8 Crusaders:
http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/Modern/f8u1-tm.jpg , which also
incorporated a tail light (the twin bumps on the back end would probably
be rear warning sensors to detect incoming enemy aircraft or missiles).
So I assume that the what's-it that was in the first photograph is the
crushed cylindrical tail section of the aircraft that incorporates the
hydraulic cylinders that move the tail control surfaces- stabilators and
rudder in this case.

Pat

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...

AND I'LL FIND IT ALSO!
Dean Peeters was right- it's the vertical fin off of a Vought F-8
Crusader, (or possibly a A-7 Corsair II...but I'm betting on the F-8).

How old does that make it?

Pat Flannery wrote:

And unfortunately quite a few that have bulges on them also. Assuming
that this _is_ a vertical fin,

I wish we had a better idea of where the numbers were and how they
were positioned in relationship to the 'root'. That would
conclusively settle the wing-or-vertical stab question.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

Good work Pat (and Dean) - it sure looks like a match!

Check out this photo - not sure that it's the same serial number but
check out the feature in the last "2" in 149212

http://members.aol.com/scottyv2/149212.jpg

compare with my friend Dave's photo of the tail base:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/index_2.htm

Dave also said he thought the (tail) tip was partly fiberglass
(antenna?) and that a visible internal bulkhead was made of wood. I
saw a reference to wood in one description.

I'm really pleased you guys tracked this down - it will settle a lot
of "discussions" we have been having at the local coffee shop.


-Paul



On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:17:04 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:



Pat Flannery wrote:

.....

AND I'LL FIND IT ALSO!
Dean Peeters was right- it's the vertical fin off of a Vought F-8
Crusader, (or possibly a A-7 Corsair II...but I'm betting on the F-8).
Look at the crashsite photo, and note the paneling that's shifted
backwards just under the bulge, so that it aligns with the front of the
fin rather than its overall shape:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
....now look at this photo of the vertical fin on a F-8 (French Navy in
this case):
http://www.aeroslides.com/modelpubli...8p/F-8P-49.jpg
Everything matches; hinge location, bump, panel arrangement, circular
access panels at base of fin. The only difference is that the French
navy used different nav gear on theirs, so that the bump is rectangular
in section, rather than the more rounded shape of the one on the
late-model U. S. Navy F-8 Crusaders:
http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/Modern/f8u1-tm.jpg , which also
incorporated a tail light (the twin bumps on the back end would probably
be rear warning sensors to detect incoming enemy aircraft or missiles).
So I assume that the what's-it that was in the first photograph is the
crushed cylindrical tail section of the aircraft that incorporates the
hydraulic cylinders that move the tail control surfaces- stabilators and
rudder in this case.

Pat

Neil Gerace wrote:

How old does that make it?




Hard to say- it's a late mod Crusader, as shown by the added fairing on
the vertical tail...mid to late 60's-very early 70's?

Pat

Derek Lyons wrote:

I wish we had a better idea of where the numbers were and how they
were positioned in relationship to the 'root'. That would
conclusively settle the wing-or-vertical stab question.


It's a stab...it's a stab off of a Crusader...Dean Peeters nailed the
thing- and my hat's off to him.

Pat

Paul wrote:

Good work Pat (and Dean) - it sure looks like a match!


Dean gets all the credit for this one; all I did was take his F-8/A-7
speculation and run with it via a Google image search.
And I thought _I_ was good at identifying aircraft!

Pat

On Sat, 29 May 2004 09:04:12 GMT, Paul wrote:

I'm really pleased you guys tracked this down - it will settle a lot
of "discussions" we have been having at the local coffee shop.

....The next project is to find that pilot and see if you can get out
of him just what happened. Provided, of course, that's all that fell
of that particular plane.

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

In article ,
Paul writes:
Good work Pat (and Dean) - it sure looks like a match!

Check out this photo - not sure that it's the same serial number but
check out the feature in the last "2" in 149212

http://members.aol.com/scottyv2/149212.jpg

compare with my friend Dave's photo of the tail base:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/index_2.htm

Dave also said he thought the (tail) tip was partly fiberglass
(antenna?) and that a visible internal bulkhead was made of wood. I
saw a reference to wood in one description.

I'm really pleased you guys tracked this down - it will settle a lot
of "discussions" we have been having at the local coffee shop.


-Paul



On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:17:04 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:



Pat Flannery wrote:

....

AND I'LL FIND IT ALSO!
Dean Peeters was right- it's the vertical fin off of a Vought F-8
Crusader, (or possibly a A-7 Corsair II...but I'm betting on the F-8).
Look at the crashsite photo, and note the paneling that's shifted
backwards just under the bulge, so that it aligns with the front of the
fin rather than its overall shape:
http://home.earthlink.net/~jpa_2/pages/item2a.htm
....now look at this photo of the vertical fin on a F-8 (French Navy in
this case):
http://www.aeroslides.com/modelpubli...8p/F-8P-49.jpg
Everything matches; hinge location, bump, panel arrangement, circular
access panels at base of fin. The only difference is that the French
navy used different nav gear on theirs, so that the bump is rectangular
in section, rather than the more rounded shape of the one on the
late-model U. S. Navy F-8 Crusaders:
http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/Modern/f8u1-tm.jpg , which also
incorporated a tail light (the twin bumps on the back end would probably
be rear warning sensors to detect incoming enemy aircraft or missiles).
So I assume that the what's-it that was in the first photograph is the
crushed cylindrical tail section of the aircraft that incorporates the
hydraulic cylinders that move the tail control surfaces- stabilators and
rudder in this case.

Pat



To add some further confirmation to Pat's detective work, BuNo 149212
was part of a block of Vought F8U-2NE (F-8E) Crusaders. First
production delivery was in December 1961.

Most of the susviving E-models were upgraded to F-8Js in 1968.
Part of teh modification was the addition of the fairing just above
the rudder for the Radar Warning Receiver/DECM antennae. So, it's
highly probable that the airplane was F-8J, BuNo 149212, and that it
was lost sometime after late 1968.

The following units flew F-8Js:
VX-4, tailcode XF, flew 2 in 1969, and 1 in 1970.
VF-24, tailcode NE flew a number varying between 9 and 12, 1970- '75
VF-51, code NF, flew 9-12 aircraft between 1969-1970.
VF-53. tailcode NF, flew between 7 & 11 aircraft 1969-'70.
VF-124, tailcode NJ, glew between 10 & 30 F-8Js from '69-'72
Fleet Replacement Training Squadron - this was where Fighter
Jocks learned their stuff
VF-162. tailcode AH, flew 12 F-8Js in 1969.
VF-191. tailcode NM, flew F-8Js 1969-1976.
VF-194, tailcode NM, flew F-8Js 1969-'76
VF-211, tailcode NP, flew F-8Js 1969-1975
VF-301, tailcode ND, flew F-8Js 1971-1974 Navy Reserve Squadron

These squadrons were all Pacific Fleet squadrons, and so would have
spent a lot of time over the SoCal deserts.

So - we can pin the timeframe down to 1969-1976. the tailcode on the
fin would help pin it down a bit better.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Dean, thanks for your efforts in tracking this down!

-Paul



On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:59:43 -0400, Dean Petters
wrote:

Look at

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-...705736_JPG.jpg

while this F-8 doesn't have that bulbous thingy, it does have protruding
hinge. if you put that with the previous link (assume that the bulb was
added without changing the hinge), then it still fits.

oh, and due to lineage, if the F-8 is a possibility, we can't rule out
an A-7. see:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-7-dvic153.jpg

it has the hinge and the bulb (not to mention, really sharp teeth!)

I also thought of the harrier, but when i looked at it, there were too
many dissimilarities.

Some other thoughts...

- it seems small for a wing. if the diameter of the ring is 4-5 feet,
the wing is no more than 3 times that long. very few fighters have that
short a wing.

-it's not an elevator, because how many elevators of that size have
actuators? Most of thsi size fully rotate around a hingepoint. that
leaves rudders. so look for rudders with bulbous thingys and hinges
showing

- if the bulkhead is the shroud around the engine, then it's either a
single-engine fighter or a twin-tail, twin engine fighter.

-the mid-mounted wing is distinctive. I could find a mid-mounted wing
only on the F-104, but the bulbous thing doesn't fit. if it's a rudder,
then there are several possibilities that fit the 'mid-mount' criteria.

just some thoughts....

Dean

Pat Flannery wrote:


But it doesn't have the protruding hinge visible on the crash debris
photo- those are generally only used on flaps, and are mounted on the
bottom of the wing- the only way something like that would end up on a
rudder is if it was designed to open like a speed brake, as it does on
the Shuttle.
First thing I thought of on seeing the bulge was the wing stabilizer
wheels on a Harrier; but the bump isn't open at the back end for the
gear leg to retract into; the wing doesn't seem to use any composites in
its construction, so that would mean that it could well be an older
aircraft.



it was also found east of San Diego, which would most likely mean a
Navy or Marine A/C.



I didn't look up the latitude/longitude coordinates, but that would be a
point in favor of my A-5 Vigilante hypothesis as well.

Pat