Good science and evidence? Lot of crap!

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:57:25 -0400, "Jonathan"
wrote:


"Ed Conrad" wrote in message
news


On 2 May 2001 18:12:35 -0400, "Gregg" wrote
to talk.origins. My reply is better late than never.

evolution is backed up by plenty of good science and evidence,

Hardly the case!


Hello Ed, my hobby is the mathematics of evolution. I can assure
you evolution is a tangible and pervasive property of the
universe. In fact, all organization in the universe, material
or living, owes it's existence to the tendencies of evolutionary
forces.

And you clearly distinguish between matter and life?

The 'integral' of evolutionary mathematics is found in random
boolean networks. A nice intro is here.

An Introduction to Complex Systems
Torsten Reil, Department of Zoology, University of Oxford
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee0818/comp...omplexity.html


The basic idea is that given enough complexity and interaction
any system will self-organize. It does so spontaneously, and
this tendency to organize and adapt is now shown mathematically
to be the final probable state of any complex dynamic system
living or otherwise.

Poor old Darwin didn't have any integral evolutionary mathematics of
random boolean networks, so he innocently called it natural variation
and natural selection of the fittest. It didn't appear amazing to him
that the fittest survived, any other outcome would have been
surprising.

The utter simplicity of evolution, and the universe, is easy
to see. The second law provides increasing complexity
and interaction by breaking things down into smaller
units. The increasing variability and interaction that
results are the driving forces for self-organization and
evolution. This tentative 'fourth law' of thermodynamics
provides symmetry with the second.

When you have a chance post a note on the utter simplicity of
evolution and the universe. Some very good minds have wrestled with
those questions for centuries.
The `second law' (thermodynamics?) actually just says the most likely
outcome from a probability point of view is more likely.
Reverting to `evolution', any increasing variability and interaction
is due to a growing number of organisms in a population. And they
don't `self-organize, they survive or die. The `fourth law' of
thermodynamics is one you better consider a little more logically.

A nice review of the major topics of the mathematics
of evolution is here.

Self-Organizing Systems (SOS) FAQ
http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm

And don't neglect Darwin, Malthus, et al.

An online book being taught at the graduate level at
MIT is here. It explains this new science quite
thoroughly. It's a science so new most in this
ng haven't even heard of it, let alone understand
it.

MIT is putting out this stuff - seriously?

DYNAMICS OF COMPLEX SYSTEMS
http://www.necsi.org/publications/dcs/


Once you've read through this stuff and understand
it, you'll be able to call classical science a crock, and
be able to prove it. You have no idea just how 'Dark Age'
much of the scientific world is even today.

I predict once you really understand it you will call it a crock.
Incidentally work on chaos has been underway on west coast for several
decades.

If you wish to truly see and denounce the stunning
level of ignorance in classical science
this new science is for you.

It also shows you a number of neat tricks, like
how to play the stock market for instance. Makes
such things child's play once one understands the
nuts and bolts of system dynamics.

Chuckle.. Is this the selling point. Just another con.
And you'll know their truth.

Very unlikely
Jonathan


s





An insult to science is really what it is.
Accompanied by the fact that it has NO physical evidence --.
Zilch! -- to prove man has any evolutionary link whatsoever
to some (any) preshistoric animal.

Don't you ever wonder, Gregg, how the decent, honest
conscientious scientists in other fields must feel about
this mockery of scientific integrity that has long been perpetratred
by this cast of vested-interest boo-birds.

Every time they face true facts and are confronted with physical
evidence, they boo -- then tell one of their 1,000,000 bagfuls of lies

=========================================

===========================================

MAN AS OLD AS COAL
Petrified Bones, Teeth and Soft Organs
(Some Human) Found Between Coal Veins

===========================================

OLDEST HUMAN SKULL EVER FOUND
http://www.edconrad.com/images/z11calv.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/images/krogwskull.jpg

Wilton Krogman, one of the world's foremost experts
on human anatomy, holds what he had identified as
a petrified human calvarium, a skull with the eye
sockets broken off, that was discovered between
Pennsylvania's anthracite veins. He is shown at his
desk at the Cooper Clinic in Lancaster, Pa., where
moments later he beckoned a colleague -- a medical
doctor -- to examine "the oldest human skull ever
found."

A CATscan was performed on this specimen with
favorable results.

http://www.edconrad.com/images/catcalv.jpg

Meanwhile, Haversian canals were identified in the
cell structue, the tell-tale sign of bone. And dried
blood was found on the specimen during testing at
American Medical Laboratories in Chantilly, Va.

This is the official report from AML which had
erformed Calculus Analysis by Crystallography.
The final report, dated April 21, 2000, was issued
by Dr. Nathan Sherman, director of laboratories.

"The specimen consists of 1 irregularly
shaped, brown calculus weighing less
than 0.0010 grams and measuring 1X1X0.5
mm. No nidus is observed. The calculi
indicates a composition of dried blood
intermingled with a few small crystals
resembling calcium oxalate dihydrate."

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z12calv.jpg

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z13cav.jpg
=============================================

OTHER PETRIFIED BONES, TEETH AND
SOFT ORGANS FOUND BETWEEN COAL VEINS
Here'sa petrified human femur still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/z8femur.jpg

Here's a petrified human finger, with fingernail:
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/FINGER/MVC-008S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/FINGER/MVC-011S.JPG

Here's a petrified human toe (with toe nail), found only
10-15 feet from the petrified finger.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Au29/MVC-017S.JPG

Here are the petrified human finger and the petrified
human toe shown together.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Au29/MVC-016S.JPG

Here's the specimen that Krogman identified as a tibia
It contains Haversian canals, proof of bone, and dried
blood was found on it during testing at American Medical
Laboratories. This is the specimen that was fraudulently
tested by Andrew MacRae who produced microscopic photos
of the cell structure of a rock on the false pretext
that he was showing the cell structure of this specimen.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/newtibia.jpg

This is the boulder containing the complete human skull.
Testing has confirmed the presence of Haversian canals
and American Medical Laboratories discovered it contains
dried blood.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/skullb.jpg

Here's a petrified human mandible (frontal).
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Newpix5/MVC-002S.JPG

Here's a portion of a human mandible (side).
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Bones/MVC-006S.JPG

Here's a giant petrified tooth.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/1tooth.jpg

Here's a petrified dinosaur foot still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Newpix3/z3dino.jpg

Here's a petrified fetus of some large animal.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/MVC-013F.JPG

Here's another petrified fetus, still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Day/MVC-005S.JPG

Here are several views of portion of a giant prehistoric
scorpion identified as such by Krogman.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-001S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-010S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-020S.JPG

Here's a photo of the same portion of a petrified giant
scorpion -- found 22 years ago -- alongside one found
weeks ago.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/SCORPIONS/MVC-039S.JPG

Here are two views of a piece of wood that appears to have
been handcarved for use as a tool or a weapon.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Tool/MVC-003S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Tool/MVC-005S.JPG
================================================== ===

LATEST DISCOVERIES: NEW Petrified Human Finger, Thumb

http://mysite.verizon.net/edconrad/O11/MVC-038S.JPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/edconrad/O11/MVC-037S.JPG

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

The second law provides increasing complexity
and interaction by breaking things down into smaller
units. The increasing variability and interaction that
results are the driving forces for self-organization and
evolution. This tentative 'fourth law' of thermodynamics
provides symmetry with the second.

Please tell me you've completed no coursework that takes anything more than
a cursory glance at thermodynamics. I'd hate to think that at some point
you were provided with a correct definition of the Second Law.
Probably no subject has spawned as much bull**** about the Second Law as
biology. Thank you for playing.

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:07:58 GMT, "Tim K." wrote:


"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

The second law provides increasing complexity
and interaction by breaking things down into smaller
units. The increasing variability and interaction that
results are the driving forces for self-organization and
evolution. This tentative 'fourth law' of thermodynamics
provides symmetry with the second.

Please tell me you've completed no coursework that takes anything more than
a cursory glance at thermodynamics. I'd hate to think that at some point
you were provided with a correct definition of the Second Law.
Probably no subject has spawned as much bull**** about the Second Law as
biology. Thank you for playing.

Biology provides one of the rare exceptions to the 2nd law.
Biochemical molecules and processes are very improbable states
arising in states of chemical chaos evident in Universe.

"vonroach" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:07:58 GMT, "Tim K." wrote:


"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

The second law provides increasing complexity
and interaction by breaking things down into smaller
units. The increasing variability and interaction that
results are the driving forces for self-organization and
evolution. This tentative 'fourth law' of thermodynamics
provides symmetry with the second.

Please tell me you've completed no coursework that takes anything more
than
a cursory glance at thermodynamics. I'd hate to think that at some point
you were provided with a correct definition of the Second Law.
Probably no subject has spawned as much bull**** about the Second Law as
biology. Thank you for playing.

Biology provides one of the rare exceptions to the 2nd law.
Biochemical molecules and processes are very improbable states
arising in states of chemical chaos evident in Universe.

Not so; biological systems achieve a temporary reduction in their own
entropy by significantly increasing the entropy of the universe as a whole.
No violation there.

Ian

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:53:27 +0100, "Jaxtraw"
wrote:

Not so; biological systems achieve a temporary reduction in their own
entropy by significantly increasing the entropy of the universe as a whole.
No violation there.

How is the increase manifested? Or is this just a theoretical abstract
`conclusion'. In the biological system, the entropy decreases
(essentially wrong way on a one way street.)

"Jaxtraw" wrote in message
...

Not so; biological systems achieve a temporary reduction in their own
entropy by significantly increasing the entropy of the universe as a
whole.
No violation there.

Nicely stated!

"vonroach" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:53:27 +0100, "Jaxtraw"
wrote:

Not so; biological systems achieve a temporary reduction in their own
entropy by significantly increasing the entropy of the universe as a
whole.
No violation there.

How is the increase manifested? Or is this just a theoretical abstract
`conclusion'. In the biological system, the entropy decreases
(essentially wrong way on a one way street.)

When you put water in your freezer it freezes right?
Heat is moved from low temperature to high temperature. The Second Law has
been violated. Or has it?
Discuss.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:17:08 GMT, "Tim K." wrote:

When you put water in your freezer it freezes right?
Heat is moved from low temperature to high temperature. The Second Law has
been violated. Or has it?
Discuss.

No, this is exactly what probability would predict, no decrease in
entropy. A `violation' would be if you place the tray in the freezer
overnight and the water was boiling when the tray removed in AM.

"vonroach" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:17:08 GMT, "Tim K." wrote:

When you put water in your freezer it freezes right?
Heat is moved from low temperature to high temperature. The Second Law
has
been violated. Or has it?
Discuss.

No, this is exactly what probability would predict, no decrease in
entropy. A `violation' would be if you place the tray in the freezer
overnight and the water was boiling when the tray removed in AM.

No - when water freezes heat is moved from low temperature inside the
freezer to higher temperature outside. What does the second law say about
temperature moving from low to high temperature? It's in the equation, not
an analogy on some website.
When you really understand WHY there is no real decrease in entropy here
you'll understand why there is no real decrease in entropy in a living
system either.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:05:50 GMT, "Tim K." wrote:

When you really understand WHY there is no real decrease in entropy here
you'll understand why there is no real decrease in entropy in a living
system either.

A living cell is a very improbable state. DNA is a very improbable
molecule. You sacrifice reality in worship of a `law' that is
generally valid.