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Keith Henson wrote:
[...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m^2 for the low temp radiator. Incident radiation on the collector is 1.1 MW/m^2, the mirror (which weighs 0.005 kg/m^2 excluding support) concentrates sunlight from 1.33 kW/m^2 to 1.1 MW/m^2, approximately 820 times at 80% efficiency. Th is 1800 K, Carnot efficiency is 44%, assumed overall efficiency to local electricity is 29%. I can't say for sure what the mass per unit area of radiation or collection are. I need to analyze a canvas tube (like an air mattress) radiator filled with low pressure gas and air float charcoal, Buckey balls or BeO. Assuming they are both around a kg/m^2, a kW should come in around 3.2 kg. I do not understand that. Ignoring the mirror, which I think - actually, I don't know what you are doing - In my example design the single sided collector has a mass of 5 kg/m^2, the double sided radiator 1 kg/m^2. The gas contact areas are 15 times the collecting or radiating areas. The coefficients of convective heat transfer are 800 and 80 W/m^2 K (the gas in the high temperature one is at twelve times the pressure of the low temperature one). The temperature difference across each is 100 K - the collector surface is at 1900K, the radiator surface at 900 K. One m^2 of collector produces 400 kWe at the station, and needs 8 or 10 square meters of radiator, so 15 kg of collectors and radiators are needed to produce 400 kWe, or 0.0375 kg/kW. My numbers might be a little hard to achieve, though they are meant to be only medium-tech at best, so let's be very generous and say 150 grams per kW. That's still 20 times less. Turbines and generators are around 0.1 kg/kW based on Boeing 777 engines. Transmitters have been analyzed at less than a kg/kW. So giving room for such parts as power conductors and the joint to the transmitter, it *might* come in at 5kg/kW. If anyone has some spare web space to hang a small xls file, I can send it to you. Yes please. I seem to be missing something in your argument. Will put it up too. -- Peter Fairbrother Keith -- Peter Fairbrother |
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On Jul 21, 10:47 am, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
Keith Henson wrote: [...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m^2 for the low temp radiator. That's not what the minimum mass calculation show, at least for the assumption that collector surface and radiator surface have about the same mass per unit area. I am assuming about a kg/m^2 for both, taking into account the supporting structure. What you want is for the sum of mass for the collector and radiator per kW, and taking into consideration the Carnot efficiency to be at a minimum. Here is the graph. http://www.htyp.org/Space_radiator The minimum came out 130 C with not much penalty between 75 C and 200 C. Of course, there could be an error in the spread sheet. If you can find one, please let me know. Keith Incident radiation on the collector is 1.1 MW/m^2, the mirror (which weighs 0.005 kg/m^2 excluding support) concentrates sunlight from 1.33 kW/m^2 to 1.1 MW/m^2, approximately 820 times at 80% efficiency. Th is 1800 K, Carnot efficiency is 44%, assumed overall efficiency to local electricity is 29%. I can't say for sure what the mass per unit area of radiation or collection are. I need to analyze a canvas tube (like an air mattress) radiator filled with low pressure gas and air float charcoal, Buckey balls or BeO. Assuming they are both around a kg/m^2, a kW should come in around 3.2 kg. I do not understand that. Ignoring the mirror, which I think - actually, I don't know what you are doing - In my example design the single sided collector has a mass of 5 kg/m^2, the double sided radiator 1 kg/m^2. The gas contact areas are 15 times the collecting or radiating areas. The coefficients of convective heat transfer are 800 and 80 W/m^2 K (the gas in the high temperature one is at twelve times the pressure of the low temperature one). The temperature difference across each is 100 K - the collector surface is at 1900K, the radiator surface at 900 K. One m^2 of collector produces 400 kWe at the station, and needs 8 or 10 square meters of radiator, so 15 kg of collectors and radiators are needed to produce 400 kWe, or 0.0375 kg/kW. My numbers might be a little hard to achieve, though they are meant to be only medium-tech at best, so let's be very generous and say 150 grams per kW. That's still 20 times less. Turbines and generators are around 0.1 kg/kW based on Boeing 777 engines. Transmitters have been analyzed at less than a kg/kW. So giving room for such parts as power conductors and the joint to the transmitter, it *might* come in at 5kg/kW. If anyone has some spare web space to hang a small xls file, I can send it to you. Yes please. I seem to be missing something in your argument. Will put it up too. -- Peter Fairbrother Keith -- Peter Fairbrother |
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![]() Keith Henson wrote: On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Peter Fairbrother Ok, the problem is that the spreadsheet ignores the mirror. You have the collection and radiating areas at approximately the same mass per unit area. This is wrong. The collector is very much lighter than the radiator per unit area, at least 20 times lighter and maybe 100 times lighter. You have calculated the minimum total area of collector and radiator, but not the minimum mass. Your collector is collecting at 1.33 kW/m2, and weighing 1 kg/m2, but that's ridiculously heavy. For a start, the collector cannot collect at 1400 K without a concentrating mirror, it's thermodynamically impossible. The mirror is presumably thin aluminium or metallised mylar, and weighs in at about 0.005 kg/m2. I agree with you *if* you can tell me how to support accurate pointing mirrors over km scales without structure. Virtually all of the collector mass is structure, Agreed. I allowed 0.005 kg/m2 for the mirror itself, the same for the high temperature bits, and 0.15 kg/m2 for structure. The obvious ways to do this include gas-filled tubes, spinning a round mirror, and a double very low pressure envelope, but I don't have a specific design in mind. Anyway, no matter what the structure is, it isn't going to weigh 1 kg/m2, or anything like that much. The pointing doesn't have to be that accurate - I have the pointing ratio [1] at 1 in 60, so a fairly easy pointing accuracy of 1 in 600 would give 90% efficiency. [1] the distance between mirror and pickup, divided by the width of the pickup. The high temperature part of the collector can be very much smaller than sunlight collecting area, and thus the overall mass of the collector can be very much less than 1 kg/m2, or the mass of the radiator. I'd use something like 0.025 g/m2 for the collector mass, and 1 kg/m2 for the radiator mass. This gives a minimum mass at about 720K, see: http://www.zenadsl6186.zen.co.uk/minimum_mass.xls I *think* I can make a 1kg/m2 self sealing, radiator surface at ~130 deg C. I don't know how at 450 C. Any ideas? Also are you counting the heat transfer fluid?, Two sheets of thin alloy, about 1 meter by 2. say 0.2mm Ti alloy, that's 1.8 kg/m2, and the radiator is double sided. High surface area on the insides for good transfer between the fluid and the metal. The sheets are roughly roller-welded in lines at say 2cm intervals along the 2m axis. The welds do not have to be leak-free, they are only there to keep the sheets from moving apart under pressure (0.4MPa). This gives a relatively low initial leakage. There are two cutoff valves so that if punctured the section is isolated. Larger sub-sections of the whole also have cutoffs. The cutoff valves could be pyro, pyro melting, chemical or other things. I am ignoring the mass of the transfer fluid, it's a couple of litres of argon at 0.4MPa, weighing 7 grams per square meter, or 0.7% of the radiator mass. You may also notice that the total mass is now about 0.07 kg/kW, rather than 1.5 kg/kW. Actually, my estimate of the total mass was 5 km/kW, but that was after taking a 50% transmission loss, so the power at the satellite including transmitter and the structure that keeps the antenna flat to 1/4 wave is 2.5 kg/kW. Agreed the transmission loss to Earth is about 50%. However trying to keep the huge main power Tx antenna flat to 1/4 wave sounds like a .... bad ... idea. It makes the electronics a little easier, but the penalty in structure mass is so huge that it isn't really even worth considering. -- Peter F You should perhaps talk to the Solaren people, they are down in that region. I hope you are right. Keith -- Peter Fairbrother Keith Henson wrote: Here you go. Keith On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote: If you could send me ac opy of the spreadsheet please? -- Peter F Keith Henson wrote: On Jul 21, 10:47 am, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Keith Henson wrote: [...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m2 for the low temp radiator. That's not what the minimum mass calculation show, at least for the assumption that collector surface and radiator surface have about the same mass per unit area. I am assuming about a kg/m2 for both, taking into account the supporting structure. What you want is for the sum of mass for the collector and radiator per kW, and taking into consideration the Carnot efficiency to be at a minimum. Here is the graph. http://www.htyp.org/Space_radiator The minimum came out 130 C with not much penalty between 75 C and 200 C. Of course, there could be an error in the spread sheet. If you can find one, please let me know. Keith |
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Peter Fairbrother wrote:
Keith Henson wrote: On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Peter Fairbrother Ok, the problem is that the spreadsheet ignores the mirror. You have the collection and radiating areas at approximately the same mass per unit area. This is wrong. The collector is very much lighter than the radiator per unit area, at least 20 times lighter and maybe 100 times lighter. You have calculated the minimum total area of collector and radiator, but not the minimum mass. Your collector is collecting at 1.33 kW/m2, and weighing 1 kg/m2, but that's ridiculously heavy. For a start, the collector cannot collect at 1400 K without a concentrating mirror, it's thermodynamically impossible. The mirror is presumably thin aluminium or metallised mylar, and weighs in at about 0.005 kg/m2. I agree with you *if* you can tell me how to support accurate pointing mirrors over km scales without structure. Virtually all of the collector mass is structure, Agreed. I allowed 0.005 kg/m2 for the mirror itself, the same for the high temperature bits, and 0.15 kg/m2 for structure. Ooops. 0.015 kg/m^2, typo. Sorry. The obvious ways to do this include gas-filled tubes, spinning a round mirror, and a double very low pressure envelope, but I don't have a specific design in mind. Anyway, no matter what the structure is, it isn't going to weigh 1 kg/m2, or anything like that much. The pointing doesn't have to be that accurate - I have the pointing ratio [1] at 1 in 60, so a fairly easy pointing accuracy of 1 in 600 would give 90% efficiency. [1] the distance between mirror and pickup, divided by the width of the pickup. The high temperature part of the collector can be very much smaller than sunlight collecting area, and thus the overall mass of the collector can be very much less than 1 kg/m2, or the mass of the radiator. I'd use something like 0.025 g/m2 for the collector mass, and 1 kg/m2 for the radiator mass. This gives a minimum mass at about 720K, see: http://www.zenadsl6186.zen.co.uk/minimum_mass.xls I *think* I can make a 1kg/m2 self sealing, radiator surface at ~130 deg C. I don't know how at 450 C. Any ideas? Also are you counting the heat transfer fluid?, Two sheets of thin alloy, about 1 meter by 2. say 0.2mm Ti alloy, that's 1.8 kg/m2, and the radiator is double sided. High surface area on the insides for good transfer between the fluid and the metal. The sheets are roughly roller-welded in lines at say 2cm intervals along the 2m axis. The welds do not have to be leak-free, they are only there to keep the sheets from moving apart under pressure (0.4MPa). This gives a relatively low initial leakage. There are two cutoff valves so that if punctured the section is isolated. Larger sub-sections of the whole also have cutoffs. The cutoff valves could be pyro, pyro melting, chemical or other things. I am ignoring the mass of the transfer fluid, it's a couple of litres of argon at 0.4MPa, weighing 7 grams per square meter, or 0.7% of the radiator mass. You may also notice that the total mass is now about 0.07 kg/kW, rather than 1.5 kg/kW. Actually, my estimate of the total mass was 5 km/kW, but that was after taking a 50% transmission loss, so the power at the satellite including transmitter and the structure that keeps the antenna flat to 1/4 wave is 2.5 kg/kW. Agreed the transmission loss to Earth is about 50%. However trying to keep the huge main power Tx antenna flat to 1/4 wave sounds like a .... bad ... idea. It makes the electronics a little easier, but the penalty in structure mass is so huge that it isn't really even worth considering. -- Peter F You should perhaps talk to the Solaren people, they are down in that region. I hope you are right. Keith -- Peter Fairbrother Keith Henson wrote: Here you go. Keith On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote: If you could send me ac opy of the spreadsheet please? -- Peter F Keith Henson wrote: On Jul 21, 10:47 am, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Keith Henson wrote: [...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m2 for the low temp radiator. That's not what the minimum mass calculation show, at least for the assumption that collector surface and radiator surface have about the same mass per unit area. I am assuming about a kg/m2 for both, taking into account the supporting structure. What you want is for the sum of mass for the collector and radiator per kW, and taking into consideration the Carnot efficiency to be at a minimum. Here is the graph. http://www.htyp.org/Space_radiator The minimum came out 130 C with not much penalty between 75 C and 200 C. Of course, there could be an error in the spread sheet. If you can find one, please let me know. Keith |
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![]() Keith Henson wrote: On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Peter Fairbrother Ok, the problem is that the spreadsheet ignores the mirror. You have the collection and radiating areas at approximately the same mass per unit area. This is wrong. The collector is very much lighter than the radiator per unit area, at least 20 times lighter and maybe 100 times lighter. You have calculated the minimum total area of collector and radiator, but not the minimum mass. Your collector is collecting at 1.33 kW/m2, and weighing 1 kg/m2, but that's ridiculously heavy. For a start, the collector cannot collect at 1400 K without a concentrating mirror, it's thermodynamically impossible. The mirror is presumably thin aluminium or metallised mylar, and weighs in at about 0.005 kg/m2. I agree with you *if* you can tell me how to support accurate pointing mirrors over km scales without structure. Virtually all of the collector mass is structure, Agreed. I allowed 0.005 kg/m2 for the mirror itself, the same for the high temperature bits, and 0.15 kg/m2 for structure. The obvious ways to do this include gas-filled tubes, spinning a round mirror, and a double very low pressure envelope, but I don't have a specific design in mind. Anyway, no matter what the structure is, it isn't going to weigh 1 kg/m2, or anything like that much. The pointing doesn't have to be that accurate - I have the pointing ratio [1] at 1 in 60, so a fairly easy pointing accuracy of 1 in 600 would give 90% efficiency. [1] the distance between mirror and pickup, divided by the width of the pickup. The high temperature part of the collector can be very much smaller than sunlight collecting area, and thus the overall mass of the collector can be very much less than 1 kg/m2, or the mass of the radiator. I'd use something like 0.025 g/m2 for the collector mass, and 1 kg/m2 for the radiator mass. This gives a minimum mass at about 720K, see: http://www.zenadsl6186.zen.co.uk/minimum_mass.xls I *think* I can make a 1kg/m2 self sealing, radiator surface at ~130 deg C. I don't know how at 450 C. Any ideas? Also are you counting the heat transfer fluid?, Two sheets of thin alloy, about 1 meter by 2. say 0.2mm Ti alloy, that's 1.8 kg/m2, and the radiator is double sided. High surface area on the insides for good transfer between the fluid and the metal. The sheets are roughly roller-welded in lines at say 2cm intervals along the 2m axis. The welds do not have to be leak-free, they are only there to keep the sheets from moving apart under pressure (0.4MPa). This gives a relatively low initial leakage. There are two cutoff valves so that if punctured the section is isolated. Larger sub-sections of the whole also have cutoffs. The cutoff valves could be pyro, pyro melting, chemical or other things. I am ignoring the mass of the transfer fluid, it's a couple of litres of argon at 0.4MPa, weighing 7 grams per square meter, or 0.7% of the radiator mass. You may also notice that the total mass is now about 0.07 kg/kW, rather than 1.5 kg/kW. Actually, my estimate of the total mass was 5 km/kW, but that was after taking a 50% transmission loss, so the power at the satellite including transmitter and the structure that keeps the antenna flat to 1/4 wave is 2.5 kg/kW. Agreed the transmission loss to Earth is about 50%. However trying to keep the huge main power Tx antenna flat to 1/4 wave sounds like a .... bad ... idea. It makes the electronics a little easier, but the penalty in structure mass is so huge that it isn't really even worth considering. -- Peter F You should perhaps talk to the Solaren people, they are down in that region. I hope you are right. Keith -- Peter Fairbrother Keith Henson wrote: Here you go. Keith On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote: If you could send me ac opy of the spreadsheet please? -- Peter F Keith Henson wrote: On Jul 21, 10:47 am, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Keith Henson wrote: [...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m2 for the low temp radiator. That's not what the minimum mass calculation show, at least for the assumption that collector surface and radiator surface have about the same mass per unit area. I am assuming about a kg/m2 for both, taking into account the supporting structure. What you want is for the sum of mass for the collector and radiator per kW, and taking into consideration the Carnot efficiency to be at a minimum. Here is the graph. http://www.htyp.org/Space_radiator The minimum came out 130 C with not much penalty between 75 C and 200 C. Of course, there could be an error in the spread sheet. If you can find one, please let me know. Keith |
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On Jul 24, 2:18 pm, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
Keith Henson wrote: On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Peter Fairbrother Ok, the problem is that the spreadsheet ignores the mirror. You have the collection and radiating areas at approximately the same mass per unit area. This is wrong. The collector is very much lighter than the radiator per unit area, at least 20 times lighter and maybe 100 times lighter. You have calculated the minimum total area of collector and radiator, but not the minimum mass. Your collector is collecting at 1.33 kW/m2, and weighing 1 kg/m2, but that's ridiculously heavy. For a start, the collector cannot collect at 1400 K without a concentrating mirror, it's thermodynamical ly impossible. The mirror is presumably thin aluminium or metallised mylar, and weighs in at about 0.005 kg/m2. I agree with you *if* you can tell me how to support accurate pointing mirrors over km scales without structure. Virtually all of the collector mass is structure, Agreed. I allowed 0.005 kg/m2 for the mirror itself, the same for the high temperature bits, and 0.15 kg/m2 for structure. The obvious ways to do this include gas-filled tubes, spinning a round mirror, and a double very low pressure envelope, but I don't have a specific design in mind. Gas filled tubes . . . . how do you keep the from being punctured? Spinning round inflated mirror, same problem. Plus you need to precess the mirror over a year to keep it pointed at the sun. Now we are talking bearings. Anyway, no matter what the structure is, it isn't going to weigh 1 kg/m2, or anything like that much. The pointing doesn't have to be that accurate - I have the pointing ratio [1] at 1 in 60, so a fairly easy pointing accuracy of 1 in 600 would give 90% efficiency. [1] the distance between mirror and pickup, divided by the width of the pickup. It's an optics problem. The high temperature part of the collector can be very much smaller than sunlight collecting area, and thus the overall mass of the collector can be very much less than 1 kg/m2, or the mass of the ra diator. I'd use something like 0.025 g/m2 for the collector mass, and 1 kg/m2 for the radiator mass. This gives a minimum mass at about 720K, see: http://www.zenadsl6186.zen.co.uk/minimum_mass.xls I *think* I can make a 1kg/m2 self sealing, radiator surface at ~130 deg C. I don't know how at 450 C. Any ideas? Also are you coun ting the heat transfer fluid?, Two sheets of thin alloy, about 1 meter by 2. say 0.2mm Ti alloy, that's 1.8 kg/m2, and the radiator is double sided. I am not sure you grok the scope of a power sat. For 2.45 GHz, the smallest practical size is 5 GW on the ground, 10 GW into the transmitter, even for 60% efficient, 16.7 GW sunlight in and 6.7 GW waste heat. 12-13 square km of reflectors into the heat cavities. It's worth working out the flow of heat sink fluid. High surface area on the insides for good transfer between the fluid and the metal. The sheets are roughly roller-welded in lines at say 2cm intervals along the 2m axis. The welds do not have to be leak-free, they are only there to keep the sheets from moving apart under pressure (0.4MPa). This gives a relatively low initial leakage. There are two cutoff valves so that if punctured the section is isolated. Larger sub-sections of the whole also have cutoffs. The cutoff valves could be pyro, pyro melting, chemical or other things. I am ignoring the mass of the transfer fluid, it's a couple of litres of argon at 0.4MPa, weighing 7 grams per square meter, or 0.7% of the radiator mass. And how fast does the argon need to be moving to transfer the waste heat? Keith You may also notice that the total mass is now about 0.07 kg/kW, rather than 1.5 kg/kW. Actually, my estimate of the total mass was 5 km/kW, but that was after taking a 50% transmission loss, so the power at the satellite including transmitter and the structure that keeps the antenna flat to 1/4 wave is 2.5 kg/kW. Agreed the transmission loss to Earth is about 50%. However trying to keep the huge main power Tx antenna flat to 1/4 wave sounds like a .... bad ... idea. It makes the electronics a little easier, but the penalty in structure mass is so huge that it isn't really even worth considering. -- Peter F You should perhaps talk to the Solaren people, they are down in that region. I hope you are right. Keith -- Peter Fairbrother Keith Henson wrote: Here you go. Keith On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 6:46 AM, Peter Fairbrother wrote: If you could send me ac opy of the spreadsheet please? -- Peter F Keith Henson wrote: On Jul 21, 10:47 am, Peter Fairbrother wrote: Keith Henson wrote: [...] Assuming the radiator and collector mass per square meter is about the same, then you can see from the graph that the minimum occurs a bit above 100 deg C, which is far below the 370-650 deg C quoted in an old paper he http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalColl...2article42.pdf I'd use something like 1,000 K as Tl. High efficiency and high rate heat radiation in space is problematic unless the temp is high. Radiative heat dispersal is about 100 kW/m2 for the low temp radiator. That's not what the minimum mass calculation show, at least for the assumption that collector surface and radiator surface have about the same mass per unit area. I am assuming about a kg/m2 for both, taking into account the supporting structure. What you want is for the sum of mass for the collector and radiator per kW, and taking into consideration the Carnot efficiency to be at a minimum. Here is the graph. http://www.htyp.org/Space_radiator The minimum came out 130 C with not much penalty between 75 C and 200 C. Of course, there could be an error in the spread sheet. If you can find one, please let me know. Keith |
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