Maybe Stephen Hawking has a point? (evil aliens)

This reminds me of Star Trek Voyager. All the aliens were either
hostile or like the Third Worlders on Earth; whining, self-
insufficient parasites with their hands out, demanding that Westerners
(Earthlings in Voyager) "owed" them something. In any case, before
man ventures into space in a big way (and the only way that will ever
happen is by building Project Orion) they should go heavily armed.

BBC:
Hawking warns over alien beings

Aliens almost certainly exist but humans should avoid making contact,
Professor Stephen Hawking has warned.

In a series for the Discovery Channel the renowned astrophysicist said
it was "perfectly rational" to assume intelligent life exists
elsewhere.

But he warned that aliens might simply raid Earth for resources, then
move on.

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed
in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans," he
said.

Prof Hawking thinks that, rather than actively trying to communicate
with extra-terrestrials, humans should do everything possible to avoid
contact.

He explained: "We only have to look at ourselves to see how
intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to
meet."

On Apr 25, 7:54*pm, Rich wrote:
This reminds me of Star Trek Voyager. *All the aliens were either
hostile or like the Third Worlders on Earth; whining, self-
insufficient parasites with their hands out, demanding that Westerners
(Earthlings in Voyager) "owed" them something. *In any case, before
man ventures into space in a big way (and the only way that will ever
happen is by building Project Orion) they should go heavily armed.

BBC:
*Hawking warns over alien beings

Aliens almost certainly exist but humans should avoid making contact,
Professor Stephen Hawking has warned.

In a series for the Discovery Channel the renowned astrophysicist said
it was "perfectly rational" to assume intelligent life exists
elsewhere.

But he warned that aliens might simply raid Earth for resources, then
move on.

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed
in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans," he
said.

Prof Hawking thinks that, rather than actively trying to communicate
with extra-terrestrials, humans should do everything possible to avoid
contact.

He explained: "We only have to look at ourselves to see how
intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to
meet."

I would like to think that our race has outgrown this 'time travel'
nonsense,a consequence of empiricists not understanding their own
system and especially what Isaac was commenting on in terms of
absolute/relative time -

"Absolute time, in astronomy, is distinguished from relative, by the
equation or correlation of the vulgar time. For the natural days are
truly unequal, though they are commonly considered as equal and used
for a measure of time;" Newton

Considering that Isaac built his predictions agenda on the Ra/Dec
system,it was no wonder that Mach expressed rage while not
understanding what is wrong with the system which uses 'sidereal
time' to express the Earth's planetary dynamics and subsequently how
the celestial arena and solar system is viewed -

"This absolute time can be measured by comparison with no motion; it
has therefore neither a practical nor a scientific value; and no one
is justified in saying that he knows aught about it. It is an idle
metaphysical conception." Mach, Analyse der Empfindungen, 6th ed.

There is no use expressing surprise any longer at the complete
disinterest is discovering exactly what is what,as far as I can
tell,empiricists mine Newton's distortions while paying no attention
to how it stacks up against actual astronomical principles ,in this
case,the references for timekeeping averages.Over 100 years ago,Mach
was good enough to come close but not good enough to put Isaac's view
in context of actual astronomical descriptions in the difference
between natural noon and 24 hour noon and since the emergence of that
'time travel' junk in the early 20th century,nobody else has come
close to asking where this junk is coming from.

Many of the millions of viewers looking in on that program will hardly
know what is behind all these absolute/relative time,space and motion
things whereas many here now know exactly what they are ,the ironic
thing being that in fighting for Newton's hypothetical observer on the
Sun/absolute space to resolve retrogrades,they contend with the
exotic early 20th century concepts directly and in doing so find
themselves in the middle of a contradiction.The readers of
sci.astro.amateur have a better understanding of the empirical
approach to astronomy than any other group on the planet,not just the
ins and outs as to how our race came to believe in 'time travel' but
what was lost in the process and what gridlock exists to maintain the
predictions/modelling agendas of empiricism.

On Apr 26, 5:43*am, oriel36 wrote

I would like to think that our race has outgrown this 'time travel'
nonsense...

I don't see where Hawking said anything about time travel, so why are
you bringing it up?

Any old excuse to hijack yet another innocent thread, right?

\Paul A

On Apr 25, 1:54*pm, Rich wrote:
This reminds me of Star Trek Voyager. *All the aliens were either
hostile or like the Third Worlders on Earth; whining, self-
insufficient parasites with their hands out, demanding that Westerners
(Earthlings in Voyager) "owed" them something. *In any case, before
man ventures into space in a big way (and the only way that will ever
happen is by building Project Orion) they should go heavily armed.

So Rich are you promising us that you will stop cashing your welfare
checks?

Rich wrote:
This reminds me of Star Trek Voyager. All the aliens were either
hostile or like the Third Worlders on Earth; whining, self-
insufficient parasites with their hands out, demanding that Westerners
(Earthlings in Voyager) "owed" them something.

Really? I seem to recall at least three counterexamples:

1. The species with the "polaric energy". Neither hostile nor
self-insufficient.
2. The species with the "trajector". Self-sufficient and if their
refusal to provide the technology to Voyager makes them
"hostile" then the Prime Directive makes the Federation equally
"hostile".
3. The species on the sped-up planet. OK, they were non-hostile,
then hostile, then non-hostile again rather than staying
non-hostile, but they did end up non-hostile.

And that's just off the top of my head.

On Apr 26, 8:53*am, palsing wrote:
On Apr 26, 5:43*am, oriel36 wrote

I would like to think that our race has outgrown this 'time travel'
nonsense...

I don't see where Hawking said anything about time travel, so why are
you bringing it up?

Any old excuse to hijack yet another innocent thread, right?

\Paul A


Yeah Birdman of Ethernet is a thread molester and should register as
such.

btw- doesn't anybody ever rememebr the old film w/ the phrase "Keep
watching the skies!", ?


berk

TBerk wrote:
On Apr 26, 8:53 am, palsing wrote:
On Apr 26, 5:43 am, oriel36 wrote

I would like to think that our race has outgrown this 'time travel'
nonsense...
I don't see where Hawking said anything about time travel, so why are
you bringing it up?

Any old excuse to hijack yet another innocent thread, right?

\Paul A


Yeah Birdman of Ethernet is a thread molester and should register as
such.

btw- doesn't anybody ever rememebr the old film w/ the phrase "Keep
watching the skies!", ?


berk


Bad advice, you get a crick in your neck.

I wonder if it would be remotely possible to have a single intelligent
discussion on the OPs post? If intelligent life exists on earth it
certainly can't be found here amongst the regular posters.

If an intelligent, technological race exists one must assume they have
followed our own very recent history. Which suggests machines, then
AI, then useful robots which provides all the free labour they need.
This rules out the need for mass invasion to secure (stroppy) slaves.
With countless cheap robots, they have no need of large numbers of
idiots doing menial tasks. The security issues of keeping these slaves
fed and doing anything useful easily outweighs the gain from free
labour. It is a nonsense story based on our own tragic history.

My belief is that intelligent races exists quite close by but cannot
contact us for moral and (our) health reasons. The arrival of an
intelligent race would immediately undermine our self confidence and
our slow advance towards equality and respect for human rights.
Religion, which is one of the essential safety valves and correction
modes, for our present gross inequalities would collapse overnight.
Still centuries away, at present progress, I still see a flat
hierarchy as the inevitable goal of any intelligent species. Do not
assume that the idiot sitting in the big office is any better than a
fortuitous, self-seeking psychopath.

"They" would also need to inoculate all of us ( and all the other
creatures of our world) to ensure our survival when subjected to
viruses to which we have had no previous exposure. No doubt they could
protect themselves if they are sufficiently advanced in immunisation
but it would not help us at all. A pandemic of their more own Measles
or 'Flu could sterilise an entire planet of existing life. Even the
arrival of foreign fungi or microscopic contaminants could spread
through our oceans making them worthless for life, or travel.

We view aliens through the filters of our own history which has cross-
contaminated our literature and entertainment industry. Our
parochialism is our downfall in being able to judge the motives for
the lack of open contact. They may be much better judges of what is
best for us (i.e. isolation) than we are ourselves. An unforeseen
breakthrough in AI or robotics could change our global viewpoints and
opinions beyond recognition almost overnight. We have the completely
unforeseen Internet yet it is still being used like any other
commodity in a global market. And, like all commodities is still being
denied or filtered to many at the whim of those still stuck in the
12th century and beyond.

Going on present form, those in charge of our affairs are more alien
than any creature circling our earth under the cloak of invisibility
to protect us from global revolution. Given sufficient experience in
contacting other worlds I imagine they have discovered that the
dominant species needs to sort out its own affairs before open contact
is remotely possible. Who knows? We may still be considered the
aggressive retards of the Milky Way? Perhaps we were put here in our
an inescapable prison until we learn the lesson which put us here in
the first place.

Cue Oriel and his doting acolytes? Or can we actually have have an
intelligent conversation without such irrelevancies dragging us back
to the showers, with bared teeth and sharpened combs in B Block?

The real truth about the human race and alien contact is that as a
race we hate the truth. The truth of how we actually treat each other
is a daily reminder of our own greed, selfishness and
acquisitiveness. We are brought up to close our eyes to the misery we
cause each other. It can be seen in the behaviour of any group of
children. Exclude anything which which is even slightly different is
written, indelibly, in our DNA. Our behaviour had value in the distant
past. Now we use it to further our economic survival in a world which
no longer needs us. Or our psychopathic behaviours. Survival is no
longer the issue for the human race. We can do that with both hands
tied behind our back. We only need to look at the mess we have made of
our nest. When will we fly? When we are, finally, ready. But not yet.
Not by a long shot.

In article ,
Chris.B wrote:
I wonder if it would be remotely possible to have a single intelligent
discussion on the OPs post? If intelligent life exists on earth it
certainly can't be found here amongst the regular posters.

If an intelligent, technological race exists one must assume they have
followed our own very recent history. Which suggests machines, then
AI, then useful robots which provides all the free labour they need.
This rules out the need for mass invasion to secure (stroppy) slaves.
With countless cheap robots, they have no need of large numbers of
idiots doing menial tasks. The security issues of keeping these slaves
fed and doing anything useful easily outweighs the gain from free
labour. It is a nonsense story based on our own tragic history.

I don't necessarily think our own image may be the best model for
such aliens, but let us extrapolate a little.

We have made significant progress in science, medicine, and can
do some decent engineering. But we have severe restrictions on us,
the most important one is access to energy. We still rely on burning
fossil fuels, and for space propulsion we are still dependent on
primitive rocketry; with mass ratios of 1:1000 or so.

Even with a few generations better rocketry we are still limited to
speeds below 100 000 km/h for space transport; this is the practical
limit of what we can get from a Jupiter slingshot. This will not bring
us to the stars; but we can sent unmanned probes around.

We could solve the energy needs, it requires around 10k nuclear fission
reactors and some sane management of the fuel. This will take around half
a century at best. Without it we will have a blip of modernity, and
then a regression to a very technologically advanced 18th century world.

Even without such a regression it will take us many centuries before
we can actually go to other solar systems ourselves. We have a wad
of science and engineering to do before we get there.

So, if someone recognisably like ourselves have gone through the same
development the comparison will be between ourselves and a future version
from a few thousand years in the future.

Imagine the Roman Empire vs a modern state, and remember the battle
of Omdurman. One decimated British regiment flattened an army using
military technology similar to the Romans. The Brits had the Gatling Gun.

It would take 2-3 modern regiments to flatten the armies the Romans
would be able to muster.

We must expect the aliens to have a greater gap in technology from
ourselves than what we have vs the Romans; as very little development
happened for 1000 of the intervening 1600 years, and development was
pretty slow for the next 400.

My belief is that intelligent races exists quite close by but cannot
contact us for moral and (our) health reasons. The arrival of an
intelligent race would immediately undermine our self confidence and
our slow advance towards equality and respect for human rights.
Religion, which is one of the essential safety valves and correction
modes, for our present gross inequalities would collapse overnight.
Still centuries away, at present progress, I still see a flat
hierarchy as the inevitable goal of any intelligent species. Do not
assume that the idiot sitting in the big office is any better than a
fortuitous, self-seeking psychopath.

What if there really is a "First Directive?". Would we be able to
detect civilisations that made an effort not to be detected by us?
And would we detect probes? Like a desktop sized probe on the moon,
camouflaged beyond anything we are ourselves capable of, transmitting
to the home base in parts of the spectrum where we are barely able to
detect anything, let alone monitor?

"They" would also need to inoculate all of us ( and all the other
creatures of our world) to ensure our survival when subjected to
viruses to which we have had no previous exposure. No doubt they could
protect themselves if they are sufficiently advanced in immunisation
but it would not help us at all. A pandemic of their more own Measles
or 'Flu could sterilise an entire planet of existing life. Even the
arrival of foreign fungi or microscopic contaminants could spread
through our oceans making them worthless for life, or travel.

Which would require a few centuries of study and sample-taking
by the other side.

We view aliens through the filters of our own history which has cross-
contaminated our literature and entertainment industry. Our
parochialism is our downfall in being able to judge the motives for
the lack of open contact. They may be much better judges of what is
best for us (i.e. isolation) than we are ourselves. An unforeseen
breakthrough in AI or robotics could change our global viewpoints and
opinions beyond recognition almost overnight. We have the completely
unforeseen Internet yet it is still being used like any other
commodity in a global market. And, like all commodities is still being
denied or filtered to many at the whim of those still stuck in the
12th century and beyond.

Given the speed of light, and the distance of most nearby stars
they may not have caught up with us much further than around 150
years ago. (There are only very few stars closer than 10 ly, the
number increases a lot by 100 ly). Perhaps the aliens are viewing
the Americal Civil War right now, and pondering our stance to
slavery.

Going on present form, those in charge of our affairs are more alien
than any creature circling our earth under the cloak of invisibility
to protect us from global revolution. Given sufficient experience in
contacting other worlds I imagine they have discovered that the
dominant species needs to sort out its own affairs before open contact
is remotely possible. Who knows? We may still be considered the
aggressive retards of the Milky Way? Perhaps we were put here in our
an inescapable prison until we learn the lesson which put us here in
the first place.

Or perhaps we are the prime research target for the galaxy at the
moment?

Cue Oriel and his doting acolytes? Or can we actually have have an
intelligent conversation without such irrelevancies dragging us back
to the showers, with bared teeth and sharpened combs in B Block?

To the traditional Christians; the Catholic Church has acknowledged
that the existance of other sentinent beings in other places is not
in conflict with Christian doctrine.

The real truth about the human race and alien contact is that as a
race we hate the truth. The truth of how we actually treat each other
is a daily reminder of our own greed, selfishness and
acquisitiveness. We are brought up to close our eyes to the misery we
cause each other. It can be seen in the behaviour of any group of
children. Exclude anything which which is even slightly different is
written, indelibly, in our DNA. Our behaviour had value in the distant
past. Now we use it to further our economic survival in a world which
no longer needs us. Or our psychopathic behaviours. Survival is no
longer the issue for the human race. We can do that with both hands
tied behind our back. We only need to look at the mess we have made of
our nest. When will we fly? When we are, finally, ready. But not yet.
Not by a long shot.

But don't write off the progress we have actually made. We have made
vast improvements in health and living conditions for the bulk of
humanity the last half century. Half of humanity are now living in
countries respecting human rights, rule of law and democracy.
More than half of the world can actually communicate; access to mobile
phones are now at ca 55% of humanity. The number of college graduates
worldwide has increased by an order of magnitude the last 50 years.

Economic progress seems to be lagging; but consider that Mexico now
has a bigger per capita GNP than the US had in 1955, and India is
at par with the 1913 US per capita GNP.

We managed to defuse the cold war before it went hot. And we have
de jure outlawed war.

Come to think of it; we must be a fascinating research target for
the aliens.

-- mrr

"Chris.B" wrote in message
...

My belief is that intelligent races exists quite close by but cannot
contact us for moral and (our) health reasons.

There definitely is an intelligent race close by, monitoring us as we
continue to decline as a race. He's called God. Undetectable by anything
we are capable of using. And He will be contacting us soon- once again- but
this time in a very dramatic way.


The arrival of an
intelligent race would immediately undermine our self confidence and
our slow advance towards equality and respect for human rights.
Religion, which is one of the essential safety valves and correction
modes, for our present gross inequalities would collapse overnight.

Nope. That's not the way it would happen. Remember that you and I exist
physically, so anything still here physically, once He arrives, will be
overwhelmed at first. It is only once a human is transformed into energy
(spirit) that we'll understand.

Still centuries away, at present progress, I still see a flat
hierarchy as the inevitable goal of any intelligent species. Do not
assume that the idiot sitting in the big office is any better than a
fortuitous, self-seeking psychopath.

"They" would also need to inoculate all of us ( and all the other
creatures of our world) to ensure our survival when subjected to
viruses to which we have had no previous exposure. No doubt they could
protect themselves if they are sufficiently advanced in immunisation
but it would not help us at all. A pandemic of their more own Measles
or 'Flu could sterilise an entire planet of existing life. Even the
arrival of foreign fungi or microscopic contaminants could spread
through our oceans making them worthless for life, or travel.

If there are other aliens out there, and the Bible doesn't deny that there
may be, they were spaced so far apart from one another at the time of
Creation that they will never contact one another, if for no other reason
than the reasons you've cited, and the only way they'll ever know about one
another is once transformed into energy beings (spirits), being free of the
physical restraints of the universe. Also, as spirits, viruses, radiation,
wars.... none of the nasties that affect us physically.... will have any
bearing on our new selves.

We view aliens through the filters of our own history which has cross-
contaminated our literature and entertainment industry. Our
parochialism is our downfall in being able to judge the motives for
the lack of open contact. They may be much better judges of what is
best for us (i.e. isolation) than we are ourselves.

God has tried to become closer to us several times and lead us onto pathways
to ensure success. However, the first time, everyone was destroyed except
for one family, a part of Him was later executed, and so now He has no
choice but to return only once the human race is on the brink of total
destruction. If you were in His place, how would you feel? If I were an
alien and read about this somewhere, I would be leary of contacting humans
until they either matured or were destroyed and then just used the planet's
resources left behind.

An unforeseen
breakthrough in AI or robotics could change our global viewpoints and
opinions beyond recognition almost overnight. We have the completely
unforeseen Internet yet it is still being used like any other
commodity in a global market. And, like all commodities is still being
denied or filtered to many at the whim of those still stuck in the
12th century and beyond.



Going on present form, those in charge of our affairs are more alien
than any creature circling our earth under the cloak of invisibility
to protect us from global revolution. Given sufficient experience in
contacting other worlds I imagine they have discovered that the
dominant species needs to sort out its own affairs before open contact
is remotely possible. Who knows? We may still be considered the
aggressive retards of the Milky Way? Perhaps we were put here in our
an inescapable prison until we learn the lesson which put us here in
the first place.

I know most people here don't believe it, but the Bible truly does explain a
lot of the whys and how we'll eventually end up. Even if one were to
dismiss most of the religious/ spiritual aspects of it, the accounts of
human history and future discussed cannot be denied.

Cue Oriel and his doting acolytes? Or can we actually have have an
intelligent conversation without such irrelevancies dragging us back
to the showers, with bared teeth and sharpened combs in B Block?

The real truth about the human race and alien contact is that as a
race we hate the truth. The truth of how we actually treat each other
is a daily reminder of our own greed, selfishness and
acquisitiveness. We are brought up to close our eyes to the misery we
cause each other. It can be seen in the behaviour of any group of
children. Exclude anything which which is even slightly different is
written, indelibly, in our DNA. Our behaviour had value in the distant
past. Now we use it to further our economic survival in a world which
no longer needs us. Or our psychopathic behaviours. Survival is no
longer the issue for the human race. We can do that with both hands
tied behind our back. We only need to look at the mess we have made of
our nest. When will we fly? When we are, finally, ready. But not yet.
Not by a long shot.

We won't fly because it's predicted. We don't advance because many continue
to reject what's there to teach us how to. What if the tools needed for
true advancement were right there in front of us and we were so blind, so
corrupted, as to not see it? Think it isn't happening now even at the time
of this writing? Think again.