Is the new AP 160 a bargain?

Does the newest offering from AP (the 160 EDF) represent the bargain
that AP refractors have traditionally held?
Historically AP scopes have sold at relative bargains. For most of the
late eighties and nineties the only other generally available 5"+
APO's were Tak and (for a while) Zeiss. Both were priced higher (in
the case of Zeiss, much higher) than AP's. The Tak's were not quite up
to the same quality level. Being higher quality than the more
expensive Tak's and being close, if not equal or superior to, much
higher priced Zeiss', made AP's a relative bargain in the APO market.
This was evidenced by long waiting lists and much higher than cost-new
resale prices.

Why did they sell at "bargain" prices? Roland has mentioned on the
newsgroups that he didn't make much money on some of these scopes. The
7"+ models required excessive hand figuring and the glass was mucho
expensive. He said that the last batch of 155 EDF's were basically
sold at cost (same for the 600 mount).

Of course as word spread about AP scopes, as disposable income
increased, and as more baby-boomers came to our hobby, AP couldn't
satisfy demand. The hew and cry went up "expand your capacity",
"increase output". Roland's response – I'm only one guy and I hand
figure (at some stage) _every_ lens that leaves here. He couldn't
produce them any quicker.

AP seemed content to being a low-volume production company that
delivered tremendous quality at an affordable price for the amateur.
When asked about expanding capacity back in 1999 Roland said "You make
it sound simple, indeed. Problem is, we are at capacity in our
building and with the machines we have. To double our capacity would
require investing approx. $1million just for capital equipment and
facilities. This money I ain't got. Our growth is pretty much
controlled by our banker to a comfortable 15% per year. More than that
requires going deeply into debt, which is not a good idea. … In short,
for us to double our production would mean tremendous capital
expenditure plus the addition of a rather large payroll. We're not
ready for it."

That was 1999. The 1999 list price for a 155EDF (with the 2.7"
focuser) was $4900. If you ordered it in 1997 or 98 you got in 1999
and you paid $4900. Not too bad considering that when you signed up
for it in 1997 or 98 the quoted price was $4500. In fact the scope was
priced at $4500 as far back as 1993 – a 1.45% annual increase thru
1999! Great value relative to the market! Zeiss APO's at super high
prices had come and gone. The Tak 150 cost much, much, more and was no
better (if as good). Yes, those lucky guys who got the last batch of
the 155's for $4900 in 1999 ($5400 in today's dollars) got a hell of a
deal.

Everyone kept saying "Roland, you can sell your scopes for much higher
prices, just look at the resale prices; why don't you?" Well, Roland
wasn't the only one listening. Tom Back and Markus started
collaborating on bringing APO's of AP level quality to the market.
They took a completely different approach by outsourcing components.
Nevertheless, thanks to Tom's stringent QC the scopes proved to be
outstanding and demand was/is high. The pricing was based on what the
market would bear – no doubt influenced by the prices that used AP's
were fetching.
Two things happened: It became readily apparent what the market would
pay for a quality APO, and affordable APO's became much less rare.

Where are we today? Amateurs have more choices than ever in APO
refractors of high quality. That is great! However, back to my
original question; does the latest AP scope offer the same bargain
that AP's once did? I believe the answer is no. AP has invested
considerable capital in expansion. This must be paid for. AP is
pricing the scopes to be competitive with TMB/TEC scopes. They are no
longer priced "under the market" as they were back when the
competition was Tak and Zeiss.

Can those lucky enough to be on the list buy the scope, use it for a
few years and be confident that it will sell at a highly appreciated
price, like they used to? Again, (only time will tell of course) I
think the answer is no. Roland has developed a new lens design that
lends itself better to higher volume production. AP scope production
will more closely approach demand. High quality APO's in general are
much more plentiful now thanks to TMB and TEC. Look at recent TMB
resale's on Astromart. Most go for about the same (sometimes a little
less) as cost-new. Other suppliers (Burgess/Back, Aries, other
Oriental makes) are coming to the market, thereby increasing supply,
and reducing scarcity.

Conclusion:
The latest AP scope is selling at a market-supported price. It is
worth the asking price. However, It no longer represents a "bargain"
like past AP scopes did. It won't resell at a highly increased price.
All of you who extolled Roland to increase production and raise prices
– Merry Christmas – you got your wish.

Disclaimers:
I either currently own or have owned both AP and TMB apo's and I like
them very much indeed. Roland and Tom have done a great service to
this hobby.

I know the value of a scope is in its use, not as a great financial
investment. However, isn't it even better when you reap both?

Is it sour grapes from one who didn't "buy in early"? Yeah, somewhat.

This isn't a knock or criticism of anyone. It is simply my
observations of the economic dynamics of the current premium- APO
market. I find it interesting. If you don't, you only wasted a little
of your time reading this )

refractor-fellow wrote:

This isn't a knock or criticism of anyone. It is simply my
observations of the economic dynamics of the current premium- APO
market. I find it interesting. If you don't, you only wasted a little
of your time reading this )

You have nicely described the situation.

Some scenarios: the production will be increased, demand not fully but
better satisfied, prices will go down and those who kept the scope (at
least partially) as investment will try to outrun the others to sell it
and "cut losses" - glut of second hand offerings on the market -
something like a bank run.
Add to it some spice of Chinese entry (they DO have cheaper energy cost
for the production of the glasses) and you can make binoscopes cheaply.
Not a nice outlook.

http://tinyurl.com/46m6g
http://tinyurl.com/3vdgn

"The 354-page report, mostly devoted to warning about the growing Asian
threat, contends that China has harnessed all its energies on conquering
high-tech markets, creating "national champions" - with protected home
markets and cheap labour - designed to punch at global level.

"China's industrial policy has selectively attracted foreign direct
investment in technology intensive industries in order to benefit from
foreign technology and organisational know-how," said the report."

retractor-fellow wrote:
Does the newest offering from AP (the 160 EDF) represent the bargain
that AP refractors have traditionally held?
Historically AP scopes have sold at relative bargains. For most of the
late eighties and nineties the only other generally available 5"+
APO's were Tak and (for a while) Zeiss. Both were priced higher (in
the case of Zeiss, much higher) than AP's. The Tak's were not quite up
to the same quality level. Being higher quality than the more
expensive Tak's and being close, if not equal or superior to, much
higher priced Zeiss', made AP's a relative bargain in the APO market.
This was evidenced by long waiting lists and much higher than cost-new
resale prices.

Why did they sell at "bargain" prices? Roland has mentioned on the
newsgroups that he didn't make much money on some of these scopes. The
7"+ models required excessive hand figuring and the glass was mucho
expensive. He said that the last batch of 155 EDF's were basically
sold at cost (same for the 600 mount).

Of course as word spread about AP scopes, as disposable income
increased, and as more baby-boomers came to our hobby, AP couldn't
satisfy demand. The hew and cry went up "expand your capacity",
"increase output". Roland's response – I'm only one guy and I hand
figure (at some stage) _every_ lens that leaves here. He couldn't
produce them any quicker.

AP seemed content to being a low-volume production company that
delivered tremendous quality at an affordable price for the amateur.
When asked about expanding capacity back in 1999 Roland said "You make
it sound simple, indeed. Problem is, we are at capacity in our
building and with the machines we have. To double our capacity would
require investing approx. $1million just for capital equipment and
facilities. This money I ain't got. Our growth is pretty much
controlled by our banker to a comfortable 15% per year. More than that
requires going deeply into debt, which is not a good idea. … In short,
for us to double our production would mean tremendous capital
expenditure plus the addition of a rather large payroll. We're not
ready for it."

That was 1999. The 1999 list price for a 155EDF (with the 2.7"
focuser) was $4900. If you ordered it in 1997 or 98 you got in 1999
and you paid $4900. Not too bad considering that when you signed up
for it in 1997 or 98 the quoted price was $4500. In fact the scope was
priced at $4500 as far back as 1993 – a 1.45% annual increase thru
1999! Great value relative to the market! Zeiss APO's at super high
prices had come and gone. The Tak 150 cost much, much, more and was no
better (if as good). Yes, those lucky guys who got the last batch of
the 155's for $4900 in 1999 ($5400 in today's dollars) got a hell of a
deal.

Everyone kept saying "Roland, you can sell your scopes for much higher
prices, just look at the resale prices; why don't you?" Well, Roland
wasn't the only one listening. Tom Back and Markus started
collaborating on bringing APO's of AP level quality to the market.
They took a completely different approach by outsourcing components.
Nevertheless, thanks to Tom's stringent QC the scopes proved to be
outstanding and demand was/is high. The pricing was based on what the
market would bear – no doubt influenced by the prices that used AP's
were fetching.
Two things happened: It became readily apparent what the market would
pay for a quality APO, and affordable APO's became much less rare.

Where are we today? Amateurs have more choices than ever in APO
refractors of high quality. That is great! However, back to my
original question; does the latest AP scope offer the same bargain
that AP's once did? I believe the answer is no. AP has invested
considerable capital in expansion. This must be paid for. AP is
pricing the scopes to be competitive with TMB/TEC scopes. They are no
longer priced "under the market" as they were back when the
competition was Tak and Zeiss.

Can those lucky enough to be on the list buy the scope, use it for a
few years and be confident that it will sell at a highly appreciated
price, like they used to? Again, (only time will tell of course) I
think the answer is no. Roland has developed a new lens design that
lends itself better to higher volume production. AP scope production
will more closely approach demand. High quality APO's in general are
much more plentiful now thanks to TMB and TEC. Look at recent TMB
resale's on Astromart. Most go for about the same (sometimes a little
less) as cost-new. Other suppliers (Burgess/Back, Aries, other
Oriental makes) are coming to the market, thereby increasing supply,
and reducing scarcity.

Conclusion:
The latest AP scope is selling at a market-supported price. It is
worth the asking price. However, It no longer represents a "bargain"
like past AP scopes did. It won't resell at a highly increased price.
All of you who extolled Roland to increase production and raise prices
– Merry Christmas – you got your wish.

Disclaimers:
I either currently own or have owned both AP and TMB apo's and I like
them very much indeed. Roland and Tom have done a great service to
this hobby.

I know the value of a scope is in its use, not as a great financial
investment. However, isn't it even better when you reap both?

Is it sour grapes from one who didn't "buy in early"? Yeah, somewhat.

This isn't a knock or criticism of anyone. It is simply my
observations of the economic dynamics of the current premium- APO
market. I find it interesting. If you don't, you only wasted a little
of your time reading this )


Lurker with no extremely expensive equipment says, great post!

damn good analysis...the only thing I would add is that roland's oil spaced
triplets (edf/edft) will remain creme de la creme...it sounds to me like roland
switched to air-spaced because he ran out of the right glass and was responding
to a demanding waiting list...

sean nolan

Conclusion:
The latest AP scope is selling at a market-supported price. It is
worth the asking price. However, It no longer represents a "bargain"
like past AP scopes did. It won't resell at a highly increased price.
All of you who extolled Roland to increase production and raise prices
- Merry Christmas - you got your wish.

However, in case no one noticed, there is still a very long waiting list ---
a fact which tends to contradict your conclusion.

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

Are you interested in optics?
Try http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATM_Optics_Software/

************************************

"CLT" not@thisaddress wrote in message

However, in case no one noticed, there is still a very long waiting
list ---
a fact which tends to contradict your conclusion.

And if the 160 actually turns out to be an improvement over the 155 (gasp!)
then thats the one everybody will want.

Ed T.

hi,

No matter which way you look at it $7000 + for 6.5 inches of aperture
is not a bargain. You have to have a reason to spend that kind of
money ..ie wide field astrophotography, dedicated planetary, lunar or
double star observer.

For general observation, high quality bargains in the 6 to 7 inch
aperture range are found in the realm of mak-newts or mak-cass scopes.

clear skies,

Larry Citro



(refractor-fellow) wrote in message om...
Does the newest offering from AP (the 160 EDF) represent the bargain
that AP refractors have traditionally held?
Historically AP scopes have sold at relative bargains. For most of the
late eighties and nineties the only other generally available 5"+
APO's were Tak and (for a while) Zeiss. Both were priced higher (in
the case of Zeiss, much higher) than AP's. The Tak's were not quite up
to the same quality level. Being higher quality than the more
expensive Tak's and being close, if not equal or superior to, much
higher priced Zeiss', made AP's a relative bargain in the APO market.
This was evidenced by long waiting lists and much higher than cost-new
resale prices.

Why did they sell at "bargain" prices? Roland has mentioned on the
newsgroups that he didn't make much money on some of these scopes. The
7"+ models required excessive hand figuring and the glass was mucho
expensive. He said that the last batch of 155 EDF's were basically
sold at cost (same for the 600 mount).

Of course as word spread about AP scopes, as disposable income
increased, and as more baby-boomers came to our hobby, AP couldn't
satisfy demand. The hew and cry went up "expand your capacity",
"increase output". Roland's response ? I'm only one guy and I hand
figure (at some stage) _every_ lens that leaves here. He couldn't
produce them any quicker.

AP seemed content to being a low-volume production company that
delivered tremendous quality at an affordable price for the amateur.
When asked about expanding capacity back in 1999 Roland said "You make
it sound simple, indeed. Problem is, we are at capacity in our
building and with the machines we have. To double our capacity would
require investing approx. $1million just for capital equipment and
facilities. This money I ain't got. Our growth is pretty much
controlled by our banker to a comfortable 15% per year. More than that
requires going deeply into debt, which is not a good idea. ? In short,
for us to double our production would mean tremendous capital
expenditure plus the addition of a rather large payroll. We're not
ready for it."

That was 1999. The 1999 list price for a 155EDF (with the 2.7"
focuser) was $4900. If you ordered it in 1997 or 98 you got in 1999
and you paid $4900. Not too bad considering that when you signed up
for it in 1997 or 98 the quoted price was $4500. In fact the scope was
priced at $4500 as far back as 1993 ? a 1.45% annual increase thru
1999! Great value relative to the market! Zeiss APO's at super high
prices had come and gone. The Tak 150 cost much, much, more and was no
better (if as good). Yes, those lucky guys who got the last batch of
the 155's for $4900 in 1999 ($5400 in today's dollars) got a hell of a
deal.

Everyone kept saying "Roland, you can sell your scopes for much higher
prices, just look at the resale prices; why don't you?" Well, Roland
wasn't the only one listening. Tom Back and Markus started
collaborating on bringing APO's of AP level quality to the market.
They took a completely different approach by outsourcing components.
Nevertheless, thanks to Tom's stringent QC the scopes proved to be
outstanding and demand was/is high. The pricing was based on what the
market would bear ? no doubt influenced by the prices that used AP's
were fetching.
Two things happened: It became readily apparent what the market would
pay for a quality APO, and affordable APO's became much less rare.

Where are we today? Amateurs have more choices than ever in APO
refractors of high quality. That is great! However, back to my
original question; does the latest AP scope offer the same bargain
that AP's once did? I believe the answer is no. AP has invested
considerable capital in expansion. This must be paid for. AP is
pricing the scopes to be competitive with TMB/TEC scopes. They are no
longer priced "under the market" as they were back when the
competition was Tak and Zeiss.

Can those lucky enough to be on the list buy the scope, use it for a
few years and be confident that it will sell at a highly appreciated
price, like they used to? Again, (only time will tell of course) I
think the answer is no. Roland has developed a new lens design that
lends itself better to higher volume production. AP scope production
will more closely approach demand. High quality APO's in general are
much more plentiful now thanks to TMB and TEC. Look at recent TMB
resale's on Astromart. Most go for about the same (sometimes a little
less) as cost-new. Other suppliers (Burgess/Back, Aries, other
Oriental makes) are coming to the market, thereby increasing supply,
and reducing scarcity.

Conclusion:
The latest AP scope is selling at a market-supported price. It is
worth the asking price. However, It no longer represents a "bargain"
like past AP scopes did. It won't resell at a highly increased price.
All of you who extolled Roland to increase production and raise prices
? Merry Christmas ? you got your wish.

Disclaimers:
I either currently own or have owned both AP and TMB apo's and I like
them very much indeed. Roland and Tom have done a great service to
this hobby.

I know the value of a scope is in its use, not as a great financial
investment. However, isn't it even better when you reap both?

Is it sour grapes from one who didn't "buy in early"? Yeah, somewhat.

This isn't a knock or criticism of anyone. It is simply my
observations of the economic dynamics of the current premium- APO
market. I find it interesting. If you don't, you only wasted a little
of your time reading this )

fewer mak newts seem to be coming on the used market and their
prices have risen over a year ago. Maybe its just temporary but Ive noticed this and wonder if it says something?

jerry



Larry Citro wrote:

hi,

No matter which way you look at it $7000 + for 6.5 inches of aperture
is not a bargain. You have to have a reason to spend that kind of
money ..ie wide field astrophotography, dedicated planetary, lunar or
double star observer.

For general observation, high quality bargains in the 6 to 7 inch
aperture range are found in the realm of mak-newts or mak-cass scopes.

clear skies,

Larry Citro

(refractor-fellow) wrote in message om...
Does the newest offering from AP (the 160 EDF) represent the bargain
that AP refractors have traditionally held?
Historically AP scopes have sold at relative bargains. For most of the
late eighties and nineties the only other generally available 5"+
APO's were Tak and (for a while) Zeiss. Both were priced higher (in
the case of Zeiss, much higher) than AP's. The Tak's were not quite up
to the same quality level. Being higher quality than the more
expensive Tak's and being close, if not equal or superior to, much
higher priced Zeiss', made AP's a relative bargain in the APO market.
This was evidenced by long waiting lists and much higher than cost-new
resale prices.

Why did they sell at "bargain" prices? Roland has mentioned on the
newsgroups that he didn't make much money on some of these scopes. The
7"+ models required excessive hand figuring and the glass was mucho
expensive. He said that the last batch of 155 EDF's were basically
sold at cost (same for the 600 mount).

Of course as word spread about AP scopes, as disposable income
increased, and as more baby-boomers came to our hobby, AP couldn't
satisfy demand. The hew and cry went up "expand your capacity",
"increase output". Roland's response ? I'm only one guy and I hand
figure (at some stage) _every_ lens that leaves here. He couldn't
produce them any quicker.

AP seemed content to being a low-volume production company that
delivered tremendous quality at an affordable price for the amateur.
When asked about expanding capacity back in 1999 Roland said "You make
it sound simple, indeed. Problem is, we are at capacity in our
building and with the machines we have. To double our capacity would
require investing approx. $1million just for capital equipment and
facilities. This money I ain't got. Our growth is pretty much
controlled by our banker to a comfortable 15% per year. More than that
requires going deeply into debt, which is not a good idea. ? In short,
for us to double our production would mean tremendous capital
expenditure plus the addition of a rather large payroll. We're not
ready for it."

That was 1999. The 1999 list price for a 155EDF (with the 2.7"
focuser) was $4900. If you ordered it in 1997 or 98 you got in 1999
and you paid $4900. Not too bad considering that when you signed up
for it in 1997 or 98 the quoted price was $4500. In fact the scope was
priced at $4500 as far back as 1993 ? a 1.45% annual increase thru
1999! Great value relative to the market! Zeiss APO's at super high
prices had come and gone. The Tak 150 cost much, much, more and was no
better (if as good). Yes, those lucky guys who got the last batch of
the 155's for $4900 in 1999 ($5400 in today's dollars) got a hell of a
deal.

Everyone kept saying "Roland, you can sell your scopes for much higher
prices, just look at the resale prices; why don't you?" Well, Roland
wasn't the only one listening. Tom Back and Markus started
collaborating on bringing APO's of AP level quality to the market.
They took a completely different approach by outsourcing components.
Nevertheless, thanks to Tom's stringent QC the scopes proved to be
outstanding and demand was/is high. The pricing was based on what the
market would bear ? no doubt influenced by the prices that used AP's
were fetching.
Two things happened: It became readily apparent what the market would
pay for a quality APO, and affordable APO's became much less rare.

Where are we today? Amateurs have more choices than ever in APO
refractors of high quality. That is great! However, back to my
original question; does the latest AP scope offer the same bargain
that AP's once did? I believe the answer is no. AP has invested
considerable capital in expansion. This must be paid for. AP is
pricing the scopes to be competitive with TMB/TEC scopes. They are no
longer priced "under the market" as they were back when the
competition was Tak and Zeiss.

Can those lucky enough to be on the list buy the scope, use it for a
few years and be confident that it will sell at a highly appreciated
price, like they used to? Again, (only time will tell of course) I
think the answer is no. Roland has developed a new lens design that
lends itself better to higher volume production. AP scope production
will more closely approach demand. High quality APO's in general are
much more plentiful now thanks to TMB and TEC. Look at recent TMB
resale's on Astromart. Most go for about the same (sometimes a little
less) as cost-new. Other suppliers (Burgess/Back, Aries, other
Oriental makes) are coming to the market, thereby increasing supply,
and reducing scarcity.

Conclusion:
The latest AP scope is selling at a market-supported price. It is
worth the asking price. However, It no longer represents a "bargain"
like past AP scopes did. It won't resell at a highly increased price.
All of you who extolled Roland to increase production and raise prices
? Merry Christmas ? you got your wish.

Disclaimers:
I either currently own or have owned both AP and TMB apo's and I like
them very much indeed. Roland and Tom have done a great service to
this hobby.

I know the value of a scope is in its use, not as a great financial
investment. However, isn't it even better when you reap both?

Is it sour grapes from one who didn't "buy in early"? Yeah, somewhat.

This isn't a knock or criticism of anyone. It is simply my
observations of the economic dynamics of the current premium- APO
market. I find it interesting. If you don't, you only wasted a little
of your time reading this )

fewer mak newts seem to be coming on the used market and their
prices have risen over a year ago. Maybe its just temporary but Ive noticed
this and wonder if it says something?

jerry

I think many people are coming to the conclusion that their weaknesses can tend
to outweigh their strengths.


rat
~( );

email: remove 'et' from .com(et) in above email address

t (Ratboy99) wrote in message ...
fewer mak newts seem to be coming on the used market and their
prices have risen over a year ago. Maybe its just temporary but Ive noticed
this and wonder if it says something?

jerry

I think many people are coming to the conclusion that their weaknesses can tend
to outweigh their strengths.

Huh? I would think that the reverse would the case if people decided
they didn't live up to their billing; people trying to sell them and a
flood of product on the market driving their value down.

The higher price is actually pretty easy to explain; the cost of new
ones has probably jumped because of the relatively weak dollar. While
they are made in Russia, I think APM in Germany sends most of them
into the country and the Euro is very strong right now meaning APM has
to charge more to make a profit.

--
Bill