Looking in all the wrong places

Hello group,

I have some ideas and questions I wanted to ask, please be kind with
your replies if any as I am new to this group and not sure if this has
been batted around before.

What if we are looking in all the wrong places for a singal from an
Extra-Terrestrial intelligent species?

I've read the article in which sending radio singals across
interstellar distances is just not econemical, and now there is a
growing belief that ET would send a "message in a bottle" instead of
by radio.
My take on this is it's half true, ET is probably launching probes to
different points of interists, but they would be using some kind of
communication method be it Radio, Laser or even Neutrino, to
communicate to the probe from the home planet. This seems realistic as
this what we would most likely do.

Now here's where I think were looking for Intelligent signals in the
wrong places.

Where in the galaxy would the highest probability of detecting a
radio,laser,etc. signal from a interstellar probe come from?

Where would a civilisation, who has interstellar travel and is most
likely as curious as we are, send a probe that is the most intriguing
and the biggest science return on investment?

From a science stand point, the most likely objects in the Galaxy that
would attract the attention of an advanced civilisation would be high
energy objects such as black holes, pulsars, nova's, etc.

Wouldn't it be feasable to examine these phenomena's for signs of
intelligent signals?

Maybe these objects become galactic "watering holes" for exploration
driven advanced civilisations?!

Wasn't it 10of100 who wrote:
Hello group,

I have some ideas and questions I wanted to ask, please be kind with
your replies if any as I am new to this group and not sure if this has
been batted around before.

What if we are looking in all the wrong places for a singal from an
Extra-Terrestrial intelligent species?

I've read the article in which sending radio singals across
interstellar distances is just not econemical, and now there is a
growing belief that ET would send a "message in a bottle" instead of
by radio.
My take on this is it's half true, ET is probably launching probes to
different points of interists, but they would be using some kind of
communication method be it Radio, Laser or even Neutrino, to
communicate to the probe from the home planet. This seems realistic as
this what we would most likely do.

Note that the communication system that they use is most likely to be
designed to be a very tight beam. The chance of us being in the beam, in
direct line of sight from the probe to its home planet, is very low.

Note also that the signals from the probe to the planet are likely to be
very much weaker than the command signals from the planet to the probe,
because it's easier to build huge antennae and power stations on home
soil. If the probe has a smaller receiving antenna, the command signals
need to be stronger. That's certainly the way that we always organize
things for interplanetary probes. So perhaps it would be best to target
our searches in exactly the opposite direction from interesting objects.

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

I see what your saying and I agree, most probes would use a form of
tight beam communications, but there is alot of assumptions that can be
made based on what we know. Any interstellar probe to a high energy
stellar object would have an extreme amount of power at it's core used
mostly for traveling vast distances but also for 'signal to noise'
ratio for a star system who's background noise could easily distort and
overcome less powerfull signals. It might be possible to look for gamma
radiation with particular energy spike a distance from such a stellar
objects.
Also, if one civilisation wanted to contact another, it might be easier
to send a signal from a place that most any civilisation would
naturally be curious about and easily detected, such as pulsars and
black holes. An added bonus would be that the transmitting civilisation
wouldn't need to worry about giving away their home system.

f/f George, I'm not suggesting taking away money from any other search,
I'm just passing on thoughts of other avenues, thats all.

Hi Greg
wrote in message ups.com...
I see what your saying and I agree, most probes would use a form of
tight beam communications, but there is alot of assumptions that can be
made based on what we know. Any interstellar probe to a high energy
stellar object would have an extreme amount of power at it's core used
mostly for traveling vast distances but also for 'signal to noise'
ratio for a star system who's background noise could easily distort and
overcome less powerfull signals. It might be possible to look for gamma
radiation with particular energy spike a distance from such a stellar
objects.

Please note that gamma radiation for communication (beacons or otherwize)
is very expensive : gamma 'photons' require extreme amounts of energy (h*f very high).
Consequently, the cost/bit would be very high.
Narrow beam optical communication would make a lot more sense.

Also, if one civilisation wanted to contact another, it might be easier
to send a signal from a place that most any civilisation would
naturally be curious about and easily detected, such as pulsars and
black holes. An added bonus would be that the transmitting civilisation
wouldn't need to worry about giving away their home system.


Nice idea. Place a beacon near a black hole or pulsar, since everyone in the galaxy would observe it.
However, black holes and pulsars are rather noisy across the spectrum.
So that would require even more power requirements for the beacon.
Also, its hard to aim accurately around a black-hole or pulsar, since gravity
will distord every beam. So the beacon would not have omnidirectional transmission capability.
Some part of the galaxy will literally be in a 'blind spot'.

Also, I don't even want to think about the logistics of getting an instrument of that complexity
and power transformers/generators placed around a black hole, but hee, ET can do anything with enough technology.
Would be very costly though. For any civilisation...

Maybe a beacon on the home planet or a nearby moon would be most cost-effective.

In message , Rob Dekker
writes

Also, if one civilisation wanted to contact another, it might be easier
to send a signal from a place that most any civilisation would
naturally be curious about and easily detected, such as pulsars and
black holes. An added bonus would be that the transmitting civilisation
wouldn't need to worry about giving away their home system.


Nice idea. Place a beacon near a black hole or pulsar, since everyone
in the galaxy would observe it.
However, black holes and pulsars are rather noisy across the spectrum.
So that would require even more power requirements for the beacon.
Also, its hard to aim accurately around a black-hole or pulsar, since gravity
will distord every beam. So the beacon would not have omnidirectional
transmission capability.
Some part of the galaxy will literally be in a 'blind spot'.

Also, I don't even want to think about the logistics of getting an
instrument of that complexity
and power transformers/generators placed around a black hole, but hee,
ET can do anything with enough technology.
Would be very costly though. For any civilisation...

Sorry to repeat myself, but surely you don't need a beacon by a pulsar,
because the pulsar is the best beacon you could have. All you have to do
is modulate it.
And a black hole gives you unlimited power.
There may be civilisations in the galaxy, but there don't seem to be any
supercivilisations doing this sort of thing - we've had heard them.

Sorry to repeat myself, but surely you don't need a beacon by a pulsar,
because the pulsar is the best beacon you could have. All you have to do
is modulate it.

Sorry for not catching that.
So, how do you modulate the signal of a pulsar at-will ?
Don't tell me you want to put a shutter in front of it, please.

And a black hole gives you unlimited power.

How do you transform the black-hole's power into something useful, like
electricity ?

In message , Mike Williams
writes
Wasn't it 10of100 who wrote:
Hello group,

I have some ideas and questions I wanted to ask, please be kind with
your replies if any as I am new to this group and not sure if this has
been batted around before.

What if we are looking in all the wrong places for a singal from an
Extra-Terrestrial intelligent species?

I've read the article in which sending radio singals across
interstellar distances is just not econemical, and now there is a
growing belief that ET would send a "message in a bottle" instead of
by radio.
My take on this is it's half true, ET is probably launching probes to
different points of interists, but they would be using some kind of
communication method be it Radio, Laser or even Neutrino, to
communicate to the probe from the home planet. This seems realistic as
this what we would most likely do.

Note that the communication system that they use is most likely to be
designed to be a very tight beam. The chance of us being in the beam, in
direct line of sight from the probe to its home planet, is very low.

Note also that the signals from the probe to the planet are likely to be
very much weaker than the command signals from the planet to the probe,
because it's easier to build huge antennae and power stations on home
soil. If the probe has a smaller receiving antenna, the command signals
need to be stronger. That's certainly the way that we always organize
things for interplanetary probes. So perhaps it would be best to target
our searches in exactly the opposite direction from interesting objects.

Don't forget that one very "interesting object" is a planet with
intelligent life, and the idea of picking up transmissions from such a
probe _in our own solar system_ goes back over 40 years, to Ronald
Bracewell's paper in Nature
R. N. Bracewell, "Communications from superior galactic communities,"
Nature, Vol. 186, No. 4726, pp. 670-671, 1960.
Presumably such a probe might be receiving transmissions from home, too.
I don't think anyone still thinks LDE's are evidence of such a probe,
but it's instructive to do a Google search for the term . You need to
add SETI or your first hit of 167,000 will be for the Linux Disk Editor
and your second Louisiana Dept. of Education :-)
--
What have they got to hide? Release the ESA Beagle 2 report.
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

Jonathan Silverlight wrote in message ...
In message , Mike Williams
writes
Wasn't it 10of100 who wrote:
Hello group,

I have some ideas and questions I wanted to ask, please be kind with
your replies if any as I am new to this group and not sure if this has
been batted around before.

What if we are looking in all the wrong places for a singal from an
Extra-Terrestrial intelligent species?

I've read the article in which sending radio singals across
interstellar distances is just not econemical, and now there is a
growing belief that ET would send a "message in a bottle" instead of
by radio.
My take on this is it's half true, ET is probably launching probes to
different points of interists, but they would be using some kind of
communication method be it Radio, Laser or even Neutrino, to
communicate to the probe from the home planet. This seems realistic as
this what we would most likely do.

Note that the communication system that they use is most likely to be
designed to be a very tight beam. The chance of us being in the beam, in
direct line of sight from the probe to its home planet, is very low.

Note also that the signals from the probe to the planet are likely to be
very much weaker than the command signals from the planet to the probe,
because it's easier to build huge antennae and power stations on home
soil. If the probe has a smaller receiving antenna, the command signals
need to be stronger. That's certainly the way that we always organize
things for interplanetary probes. So perhaps it would be best to target
our searches in exactly the opposite direction from interesting objects.

Don't forget that one very "interesting object" is a planet with
intelligent life, and the idea of picking up transmissions from such a
probe _in our own solar system_ goes back over 40 years, to Ronald
Bracewell's paper in Nature
R. N. Bracewell, "Communications from superior galactic communities,"
Nature, Vol. 186, No. 4726, pp. 670-671, 1960.
Presumably such a probe might be receiving transmissions from home, too.
I don't think anyone still thinks LDE's are evidence of such a probe,
but it's instructive to do a Google search for the term . You need to
add SETI or your first hit of 167,000 will be for the Linux Disk Editor
and your second Louisiana Dept. of Education :-)

My suggestions are based on what is known, I have hard time believing
that a probe is already here, the cost and time of just searching for
radio signals such that Seti does, shows us how difficult it is in
detecting other intelligent life.
Based on what we know now, interstellar travel is extremely costly and
energy intensive, this tells us that without proper motive travel
between stars will be very limited and mostly scientific study. What
is the most likely scientifically interesting and rewarding
interstellar object for any advanced race? Most likely a black hole,
pulsar and etc.

Again it's just a hypothesis.

"10of100" wrote in message m...
Hello group,

I have some ideas and questions I wanted to ask, please be kind with
your replies if any as I am new to this group and not sure if this has
been batted around before.


Welcome ! We are always kind in this newsgroup )
The purpose of this newsgroup is to exchange ideas, and share thoughts, and ask/answer questions about this fascinating new branch
of science.
Similar ideas come up every now and then, but this one "message-in-a-bottle" idea has not yet been discussed in depth.

What if we are looking in all the wrong places for a singal from an
Extra-Terrestrial intelligent species?

I've read the article in which sending radio singals across
interstellar distances is just not econemical, and now there is a
growing belief that ET would send a "message in a bottle" instead of
by radio.

If you refered to my "about beacons" post, then allow me make one clarification :

Sending radio signals (and also optical) across interstellar distances IS economical, if it is a single point-to-point communication
where you know the position of the receiver.
But if you don't know who is out there, or where, the posting clarifies that the cost of radio (microwave) beaconing to 1 million or
1billion stars is what kills you.

Now, the shere number of potential target star systems is (in my opinion) what also kills the "message in a bottle" approach.
What is the cost of sending out 1billion probes across the galaxy ?

These things should be quite sophisticated, with lots of intelligence, because they need to operate totally autonomous :
At 1000 or 10,000LYs from home, there is no 'remote-control' possible.
They need to be brought up to speed after lauch, which costs a lot of energy, then withstand an extremely long journey through
unknown space (a million years at 1% of light speed, more speed costs exponential amounts more energy) .
After arrival, they need to slow down, know how to manouver into an unknown star system, position themselves, bring their equipment
on-line, map the planets in the star system, collect all data that home needs to know (including signs of (intelligent) life), and
they need a powerfull transmitter to send their findings back.

If ET is extremely sophisticated in space-travel, and technology, and they can actually build and lauch and control such a probe for
a rock-bottom $1M (2004 Earth money), then to target 1billion stars would still require $1,000Trilllion. Way more expensive than a
radio or optical beacon. And if they don't send out many probes, then we have a low probability of being visited (same
problem/reasoning as with the beacon signals).

I dont know about you, but I believe that only a 'colonizing' civilisation could afford that. That would be a 'class I'
civilisation, and they won't need to send probes out that far, since they already expanded (or are expanding) through the galaxy on
colonisation ships. And if that civilisation has colonisation ships and mastered interstellar travel, then there is nothing in their
way to flood the galaxy in a whimsical 100M years or so. They should have been here already. So that's back to the Fermie paradox.

So message-in-a-bottle is way too expensive for a single-planet civilisation (and certainly much more expensive than a beacon), and
otherwize it should come from a civilisation which already covers the entire galaxy with colonies.

I see what you mean, again I partially agree. I still think that there
will be a combination of radio/laser/etc signals. and interstellar
probes.

Here's the perfect analogy of what I'm suggesting;

When trying to find other people who like to read books that interest
you, if you go to a library or even on-line, the chances are extremely
higher to finding that person than, let's say, going door to door.

You mentioned on one of my other post's how gamma radiation wouldn't
be used as a communication method, which I agree on. What I was
implying was that gamma radiation could be sign of either antimatter or
fusion type drive, the only two types of energy sources that are
powerful enough for interstellar travel. Again all of this is based on
what we know today, an advanced civilisation probably would have come
up with several new tricks that we aren't aware of, but those I can
only guess at and aren't good to base a hypothesis on.
If we can detect gamma radiation in the terrawatt level circling
several AU's from a black hole this could be a sign of something. (of
course detecting something like that so close to an object that emits
exawatts of energy would be a technical challenge, but thats another
story)
Also if a probe is in orbit, maybe a polar orbit around a black hole,
the blind spot you mentioned wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks guys you've made this discussion very interesting and helped
clairify alot.