Any chnace of an ESA manned space program?

Now that the European Space Agency will be buying Soyuz rockets, do any of
you eggheads in here think might start developing a manned space program in
the next couple decades? It would be a nice feather in the cap for the EU
(And yes I know the two aren't officially connected).

--
"I don't understand how poor people think."
-- George W. Bush, New York Times, 2003-08-26

Goliath & Wildwing's Storage Room
http://anatidae.homestead.com/

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:49:29 -0700, james_anatidae wrote:

Now that the European Space Agency will be buying Soyuz rockets, do any
of you eggheads in here think might start developing a manned space
program in the next couple decades? It would be a nice feather in the
cap for the EU (And yes I know the two aren't officially connected).


Remember Hermes?

Didn't think so.

--Damon

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:30:06 -0700, Damon Hill
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:49:29 -0700, james_anatidae wrote:

Now that the European Space Agency will be buying Soyuz rockets, do any
of you eggheads in here think might start developing a manned space
program in the next couple decades? It would be a nice feather in the
cap for the EU (And yes I know the two aren't officially connected).


Remember Hermes?

Didn't think so.


Couldn't the ESA use the ATV as a building block to create a manned
capsule?

- Rusty Barton

"Rusty Barton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:30:06 -0700, Damon Hill
Remember Hermes?

Didn't think so.


Couldn't the ESA use the ATV as a building block to create a manned
capsule?

The outside shape doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It's the cost to
develop, test, and build everything else you need that really dominates the
cost. Note that for decent testing, you ought to have at least a few
unmanned flights of your vehicle. That really drives up the cost with
today's launch costs.

Jeff
--
Remove icky phrase from email address to get a valid address.

"Jeff Findley" wrote in message ...
"Rusty Barton" wrote in message
...
Couldn't the ESA use the ATV as a building block to create a manned
capsule?

The outside shape doesn't matter as much as you'd think. It's the cost to
develop, test, and build everything else you need that really dominates the
cost. Note that for decent testing, you ought to have at least a few
unmanned flights of your vehicle. That really drives up the cost with
today's launch costs.

True. But I still think it would be a good idea. It could even be re-used to
conduct certain automated experiments requiring recovery and/or atmosphere
similar to the Russian Photon capsule vs Vostok.

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:30:06 -0700, Damon Hill
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 18:49:29 -0700, james_anatidae wrote:

Now that the European Space Agency will be buying Soyuz rockets, do any
of you eggheads in here think might start developing a manned space
program in the next couple decades? It would be a nice feather in the
cap for the EU (And yes I know the two aren't officially connected).


Remember Hermes?

Didn't think so.


Couldn't the ESA use the ATV as a building block to create a manned
capsule?

Many years ago now when the ATV was first being thought out there was a
design called "CTV" that used the ATV craft with a manned capsule
instead of the cargo section. The capsule was a scaled up version of the
ARD demonstrator that eventually flew on the second (I think..) Ariane 5
flight.

K

"Kerry Ferrand" wrote in message
. nz...

Many years ago now when the ATV was first being thought out there was a
design called "CTV" that used the ATV craft with a manned capsule
instead of the cargo section. The capsule was a scaled up version of the
ARD demonstrator that eventually flew on the second (I think..) Ariane 5
flight.

That sounds a lot like the Saturn 1B Apollo CSM. I wonder if the
capabilities are also similar. Interesting....


--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge

"Alan Erskine" wrote in message ...
"Kerry Ferrand" wrote in message
. nz...

Many years ago now when the ATV was first being thought out there was a
design called "CTV" that used the ATV craft with a manned capsule
instead of the cargo section. The capsule was a scaled up version of the
ARD demonstrator that eventually flew on the second (I think..) Ariane 5
flight.

Yeah, the second successful flight. Third if you count the failed first
launch with the Cluster sats.

That sounds a lot like the Saturn 1B Apollo CSM. I wonder if the
capabilities are also similar. Interesting....

ARD (Atmospheric Reentry Demonstrator) was based on the Apollo capsule
shape so that was to be expected:
http://www.estec.esa.int/spaceflight/ard.htm

Here's some pics:
http://tinyurl.com/45vjp

After the Hermes mini-shuttle boondoggle, ESA decided to take baby steps.
ARD was a subscale testbed for reentry technologies.

The CTV was meant to be a crewed capsule vehicle for transport to the ISS,
but seemingly it got axed because it wasn't, uh, using sufficiently advanced
technology, whatever that means (what's wrong with using stuff that just
plain works?):
http://astronautix.com/craft/esaacrv.htm

So money was diverted to a cooperative project with the US instead (X-38 CRV):
http://esapub.esrin.esa.it/bulletin/bullet101/graf.pdf

Which, of course, got axed because of ISS cost overruns. The latest I've heard
about reentry technology from ESA was the EXPERT test vehicle:
http://esapub.esrin.esa.it/bulletin/.../page42-49.pdf

I remember other research work done in the Netherlands involving active
cooling using water evaporation:
http://www.vm.lr.tudelft.nl/educatio...ects.php?id=13

All of this technology is meant to be used in future vehicles, but I wouldn't
expect much. The real problem seems to be a lack of clear objectives and the
appropriate funding.