What discourages Amateur Astronomers more than this?

Thank you for those who replied to my posts where I made some general
observations, which one person has rightly described as provocative.

What is wrong with deliberately trying to start some healthy debate on
a subject?

Another reader has very kindly and adeptly explained to me the uses of
CCD astrophotagraphy and has explained that indeed this has very
important uses, thank you for your explanations.

However it is with one point I highly disagree.

It has been postulated that my method of observation is perhaps
outdated which I am happy to accept to a point. I have always
considered that ones time actually making visual observations more
important than recording the observations. I am amazed at the
suggestion that my suggestion that making sketches hones observational
skills will "put off" new comers from taking up amateur astronomy.

However it is the way in which I was deliberately and abusively
attacked for holding my views which would put off new comers. I
remember many hot debates at numerous astronomical meetings, however,
I never was verbally "glassed in the face" as seems to be the case on
this newsgroup.

It seems that the art of debate is also dying, to be replaced by
abusive name calling and virtual violence.

Anyhow thanks for the civil replies which I did get, in comparison to
the numbheads who only can shout abuse....

As for being a "Troll" sorry I do not know what you are getting at
here, I am a keen observational astronomer who was simply making known
his observations regarding SOME persons who post here.

Thank God there are other (usually American led) newsgroups which
maintain their amateur astronomy feeling.

As far as I can see UK.SCI.Astronomy is a newgroups run by about three
cliquish persons who if you are not a memmber of their elitist group,
just pour abuse and disdain whenever one asks a civil question.

I think if this group represents the "best of British Astronomy and
Astronomers" God Help Us All.

Happy Christmas wannabee scientists!!

Greg Dortmond

"Greg Dortmond" wrote in message
om...
However it is the way in which I was deliberately and abusively
attacked for holding my views which would put off new comers. I
remember many hot debates at numerous astronomical meetings, however,
I never was verbally "glassed in the face" as seems to be the case on
this newsgroup.

It seems that the art of debate is also dying, to be replaced by
abusive name calling and virtual violence.


Sorry Greg, you've lost me here. I've read the replies to your first two
posts, and didn't see anything which was abusive, or would constitute
"vitual violence" or "glassed in the face". If you received abusive replies
directly via email, then you should report them to the relevant ISP.

As for being a "Troll" sorry I do not know what you are getting at
here, I am a keen observational astronomer who was simply making known
his observations regarding SOME persons who post here.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=troll
"Troll: An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic)
communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly
controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message.
Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger
on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds."

i.e. When people say "get back under your bridge", or "don't feed the troll"
etc., they are implying your post is an attempt at a troll.

Happy Christmas wannabee scientists!!

Yes, just like that! - "Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction..."

John.

In article ,
says...
"Greg Dortmond" wrote in message
om...
However it is the way in which I was deliberately and abusively
attacked for holding my views which would put off new comers. I
remember many hot debates at numerous astronomical meetings, however,
I never was verbally "glassed in the face" as seems to be the case on
this newsgroup.

It seems that the art of debate is also dying, to be replaced by
abusive name calling and virtual violence.


Sorry Greg, you've lost me here. I've read the replies to your first two
posts, and didn't see anything which was abusive, or would constitute
"vitual violence" or "glassed in the face". If you received abusive replies
directly via email, then you should report them to the relevant ISP.

I think that he classes any post that disagrees with his view as
abusive, and this from someone who goes on about debating being dead.

--

Regards

Nick

What is wrong with deliberately trying to start some healthy debate on
a subject?

There is nothing wrong with trying to start a debate, but your posts
appeared nothing more than an attempt to inflame without regard to raising
anything for discussion.

However it is with one point I highly disagree.
It has been postulated that my method of observation is perhaps
outdated which I am happy to accept to a point. I have always
considered that ones time actually making visual observations more
important than recording the observations. I am amazed at the
suggestion that my suggestion that making sketches hones observational
skills will "put off" new comers from taking up amateur astronomy.


Some people will be put off with the idea of having to make sketches in an
electronic age. Some people come into astronomy as they like the idea of
loads of sparkling gadgets. I however still enjoy sketching my observations
at the scope, I wouldn't however think that someone who went out and spent
loads of money on totally electronic kit from the start is any less of an
astronomer than me. If someone wants to spend the money and give the
electric free observe and sketch (as I do) then good luck to them, I hope
they enjoy the hobby.

However it is the way in which I was deliberately and abusively
attacked for holding my views which would put off new comers. I
remember many hot debates at numerous astronomical meetings, however,
I never was verbally "glassed in the face" as seems to be the case on
this newsgroup.

Your two previous post looked flame oriented (see above)

It seems that the art of debate is also dying, to be replaced by
abusive name calling and virtual violence.

This year has seen some good debates, you can either participate or lurk,
how long have you been lurking to make this statement?

Anyhow thanks for the civil replies which I did get, in comparison to
the numbheads who only can shout abuse....

Its a newsgroup, get a thicker skin, I've seen no reply that has been what
you could call abusive.

Thank God there are other (usually American led) newsgroups which
maintain their amateur astronomy feeling.

I hope you enjoy them.

As far as I can see UK.SCI.Astronomy is a newgroups run by about three
cliquish persons who if you are not a memmber of their elitist group,
just pour abuse and disdain whenever one asks a civil question.


This group has some regular members, but I've not noticed them being
elitist, and as for cliquish persons its not something I've noticed. If
someone asks a 'civil' question they normally get a useful and civil
response.

I think if this group represents the "best of British Astronomy and
Astronomers" God Help Us All.


Two recent events spring to mind that proves your point wrong, the lunar
paralax project (Pete Lawrence); and the numerous warnings and reports of
solar activity and aurora alerts has proven the worth of this newsgroup, and
has shown British Amateur Astronomy is alive and kicking.

Take an active part in the newsgroup, start a real discussion, post your
observation logs; and then after a few months if you still feel the same say
something then rather than criticize the newsgroup after what I can see is
only recent activity on your part.

Graeme Skinner

"Greg Dortmond" wrote in message
om...
Thank you for those who replied to my posts where I made some general
observations, which one person has rightly described as provocative.

What is wrong with deliberately trying to start some healthy debate on
a subject?

Another reader has very kindly and adeptly explained to me the uses of
CCD astrophotagraphy and has explained that indeed this has very
important uses, thank you for your explanations.

However it is with one point I highly disagree.

It has been postulated that my method of observation is perhaps
outdated which I am happy to accept to a point. I have always
considered that ones time actually making visual observations more
important than recording the observations. I am amazed at the
suggestion that my suggestion that making sketches hones observational
skills will "put off" new comers from taking up amateur astronomy.

However it is the way in which I was deliberately and abusively
attacked for holding my views which would put off new comers. I
remember many hot debates at numerous astronomical meetings, however,
I never was verbally "glassed in the face" as seems to be the case on
this newsgroup.


I have not seen any abusive replies in this newsgroup. Of course you are
entitled to your views. However, you must have been aware your posts
criticize a large group of people you do not personally know. I for one do
not really understand the reason for your bitterness about the "demise" of
this wonderful hobby. I'm part of a very enthusiastic group of amateur
astronomers in the Netherlands with some very knowledgeable members who are
younger than me. I don't share your vision, and I wonder what it is based
on.

Technology evolves. Times change. The excitement stays the same.

It seems that the art of debate is also dying, to be replaced by
abusive name calling and virtual violence.

Anyhow thanks for the civil replies which I did get, in comparison to
the numbheads who only can shout abuse....

As for being a "Troll" sorry I do not know what you are getting at
here, I am a keen observational astronomer who was simply making known
his observations regarding SOME persons who post here.

Thank God there are other (usually American led) newsgroups which
maintain their amateur astronomy feeling.


Thank God there is an alternative to the US-centric s.a.a.

As far as I can see UK.SCI.Astronomy is a newgroups run by about three
cliquish persons who if you are not a memmber of their elitist group,
just pour abuse and disdain whenever one asks a civil question.


Not in my experience.

I think if this group represents the "best of British Astronomy and
Astronomers" God Help Us All.


Define "this group". I'm not even British!

Happy Christmas wannabee scientists!!


Hah. Happy Christmas to everyone that contributes to this great hobby!

Jeroen.

Greg Dortmond

On 21 Dec 2003 11:17:10 -0800, in uk.sci.astronomy ,
(Greg Dortmond) wrote:

Thank you for those who replied to my posts where I made some general
observations, which one person has rightly described as provocative.

Welcome to my killfile.

What is wrong with deliberately trying to start some healthy debate on
a subject?

Well, you could try starting a debate, rather than being abusive and
childish.

So long.,

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
CLC readme: http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html


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In article ,
says...

snip

I suspect that really discourages people would be thought that they
might come into contact with someone like you!

Let me give you something else to think about.

I'm sitting in my study in front of my main PC posting to this group, my
scope is outside being controlled by my laptop, which is next to me on
the desk.

I'm nice and warm and can look at whatever is within my scopes field of
view without going out into the cold.

I can record what my scope sees even while I'm watching television or in
bed for later perusal.

No back ache and frozen fingers for me!

My thanks to Lillian Hobs and her article that was published a couple of
years ago in Astronomy Now about remote viewing for the inspiration.

For what it's worth I do more observing now than I would if I had to do
it the 'old fashioned' way.

Welcome to the 21st century.
--

Regards

Nick

Ultimatly astronomy is about the individual,

Whatever you want from it you can take, it really does not matter
about the various debates such as whether GOTO scopes are good or bad,
Whether computer infringements are a good thing or a bad thing these
points are completely irrelavent. They are also points that are
normally argued amoungst the more senior amatures rather than the
novice whom will take whatever they wish wheather it be a GOTO scope
or a manual scope.

Surely the main thing is that they are looking and they are learning.
Further they are bringing the price of scopes tumbling down. In fact i
am finding it difficult to find one bad thing about any of the recent
advances in this hobby.

I have a manual scope with no motors or GOTO's i have too confess
though i have had days where the GOTO facility has been calling me
from afar. g

Barry