Serious question about spending money

If you had 10 grand to spend on a community/educational astronomical
facility (try sying that withyour mouth full) what would you spend it
on?

Skies are potentially reasonably dark, there is nothing else in either
the community or educational area and there is a demonstrable
enthusiasm for astronomy. The money would have to be spent within the
next 12 months but additional funds (say 1g) could be raised and the
revenue to run, support and improve the facility in future years can
be found.

Currently avalable level of expertise is low to medium amateur (but
can tap into to real expertise on occasion).

Help.... Any and all ideas, suggestions welcome - and thanks in
advance.

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

Hi Martin,

Sounds like you are in on something exciting! I had a couple of thoughts:

(1) Who is the targeted population? ie, little kids, high schoolers, general
public at public nights? Will it be show and tell like a public night, or
will it be for students to be able to use for research projects for grade
school, high school or college?

(2) Are sky conditions best for a big dob or a smaller scope intended for
planetary/lunar work? You mentioned "reasonably dark" but how stable is the
air?

(3) Does the 10k have to cover the building as well as the scope? Is the
land already provided?

(4) Do you have local club(s) that can provide skilled labor for a large
mount or dome/roll-off design? Or will that have to be hired with the 10k?

(5) If the land is already in hand, is it easily accessible to the public,
with sufficient parking? (again, does the 10k go completely to scope or does
it need to buy other stuff?)

Sounds exciting!

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

"Martin Frey" wrote in message
news
If you had 10 grand to spend on a community/educational astronomical
facility (try sying that withyour mouth full) what would you spend it
on?

Skies are potentially reasonably dark, there is nothing else in either
the community or educational area and there is a demonstrable
enthusiasm for astronomy. The money would have to be spent within the
next 12 months but additional funds (say 1g) could be raised and the
revenue to run, support and improve the facility in future years can
be found.

Currently avalable level of expertise is low to medium amateur (but
can tap into to real expertise on occasion).

Help.... Any and all ideas, suggestions welcome - and thanks in
advance.

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Chuck Taylor" wrote:

Chuck - many thanks:

Sounds like you are in on something exciting! I had a couple of thoughts:

It will be an exciting challenge and I have to get some kind of plan
together fairly soon after Christmas.

(1) Who is the targeted population? ie, little kids, high schoolers, general
public at public nights? Will it be show and tell like a public night, or
will it be for students to be able to use for research projects for grade
school, high school or college?

The main targets are the school but its huge (by English standards)
2000+ students 11-18. The 16+s should be able to do serious work as
astrophysics is on the curriculum.

(2) Are sky conditions best for a big dob or a smaller scope intended for
planetary/lunar work? You mentioned "reasonably dark" but how stable is the
air?

The seeing is variable but generally better than average - dew can be
a problem. Lightpollution is currently locally very poor - the school
is very badly lit but improving rapidly. Otherwise there is an orange
glow from 10 miles away - a town of 50,000 and the local community -
all houses more than 800 yards away and the closes with their backs to
us - not too bad as security lights tend to be on the front.

I put up a proposal 2 years ago - that got rather lost in the turmoil
of a busy school - for a big dob. But the more I think about ladders
in the dark the more I veer away from it. The target audiences are
both 11-18 and 50 plus, judging by my astro society membership,
neither mixes well with ladders.

(3) Does the 10k have to cover the building as well as the scope? Is the
land already provided?

Land is provided as is access to toilets, car-parking, and power - no
cost, except perhaps the last 20 yards of power supply..

(4) Do you have local club(s) that can provide skilled labor for a large
mount or dome/roll-off design? Or will that have to be hired with the 10k?

I'm hopeful that labour costs will be minimal and that, if an
observatory is part of the scheme it might have a small astronomy
classroom/study area attached. A friend has just completed a very
practical and good looking dome - a mini Mauna Kea, 6 foot diameter,
his Mark 3 observatory, so we have access to some expertise.

(5) If the land is already in hand, is it easily accessible to the public,
with sufficient parking? (again, does the 10k go completely to scope or does
it need to buy other stuff?)

see 3 above. The school will, I suspect, want a dome of some kind -
these are prestige items in competitive times for public education.
This rather forces the issue between lots of cheapo scopes or one big
one. When I costed up a dream scheme yesterday it came to 22-25 k
pounds. My dreams usually cost more than 10 times budget, so I'm quite
heartened by this.

Sounds exciting!

I surely am. But some many radically different ways to go makes it
tricky and I need to get something like a proposal in soon after
Christmas.

At the moment I always return to a big SCT in a dome with a refractor
piggy backed on it for live video feed to PCs to keep those waiting
for eyepiece time occupied. But I'm happy to be shot down on this.

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Martin Frey" wrote in message
news
It will be an exciting challenge and I have to get some kind of plan
together fairly soon after Christmas.

Yikes, that doesn't give you much time to dream and play with ideas.

The main targets are the school but its huge (by English standards)
2000+ students 11-18. The 16+s should be able to do serious work as
astrophysics is on the curriculum.

Nice to have a school with that curriculum!

The seeing is variable but generally better than average - dew can be
a problem. Lightpollution is currently locally very poor - the school
is very badly lit but improving rapidly. Otherwise there is an orange
glow from 10 miles away - a town of 50,000 and the local community -
all houses more than 800 yards away and the closes with their backs to
us - not too bad as security lights tend to be on the front.

So some serious aperture would be nice. I live on the west (US) coast near
Puget Sound (Washington) and rarely see a night without dew. Half the time I
feel like I'm swimming out there. So part of your budget needs to include
dew heaters etc. Have you seen the Dewbuster? It's at
http://www.gbronline.com/ronkeating/default.htm along with a review by Rod.
It looks like it would be perfect for nights when the scope operator has his
or her hands full and needs automatic dew heating.

I put up a proposal 2 years ago - that got rather lost in the turmoil
of a busy school - for a big dob. But the more I think about ladders
in the dark the more I veer away from it. The target audiences are
both 11-18 and 50 plus, judging by my astro society membership,
neither mixes well with ladders.

I see your point! :-(

I can also see how others might have been happy to let a proposal get lost
when it involved kids, ladders and the dark.

Land is provided as is access to toilets, car-parking, and power - no
cost, except perhaps the last 20 yards of power supply..

Nice! Will you be able to use a school classroom during a night session?

I'm hopeful that labour costs will be minimal and that, if an
observatory is part of the scheme it might have a small astronomy
classroom/study area attached. A friend has just completed a very
practical and good looking dome - a mini Mauna Kea, 6 foot diameter,
his Mark 3 observatory, so we have access to some expertise.

Your idea of an SCT would go well with a smaller dome. You could build it
with a room beneath and add an extension to the room later. Maybe stage one
is build the dome. Stage two is add an additional room with a temporary roof
and stage three is to put a slide off roof on that section for scopes
acquired later?

see 3 above. The school will, I suspect, want a dome of some kind -
these are prestige items in competitive times for public education.
This rather forces the issue between lots of cheapo scopes or one big
one. When I costed up a dream scheme yesterday it came to 22-25 k
pounds. My dreams usually cost more than 10 times budget, so I'm quite
heartened by this.

I had to go and covert. I came up with 10k pounds = $17,233 US. That's still
a good start. The dome makes sense from the school's viewpoint and it would
be a constant advertisement to attract interest.

I surely am. But some many radically different ways to go makes it
tricky and I need to get something like a proposal in soon after
Christmas.

At the moment I always return to a big SCT in a dome with a refractor
piggy backed on it for live video feed to PCs to keep those waiting
for eyepiece time occupied. But I'm happy to be shot down on this.

Something like this: http://www.astromart.com/viewad.asp?cid=228421 ? That
might leave you short for the rest of the stuff, but if the clubs could
build the dome etc...

If you do go after a 16" SCT, Sol Robbins on the Chinese Refractor list
spent quite a lot of time setting up two or three of them. I believe it was
for a university. He's usually very helpful.

From what you've said, the big SCT does look best.

It's a shame the solar max is past. Have you thought of a Ha system with
video camera?

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

I've been watching the sun a little lately (Baader filter) and dropped in to
lurk and pick up some pointers. And as you said, it's a lot warmer during
the day :-)

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

BTW, you are going to show these kids that the moon is the best thing up
there, aren't you?

;-)

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Chuck Taylor" wrote:

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

BTW, you are going to show these kids that the moon is the best thing up
there, aren't you?

Moon is irresistable - don't think I'll need to show the kids that....

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Chuck Taylor" wrote:

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

BTW, you are going to show these kids that the moon is the best thing up
there, aren't you?

Moon is irresistable - don't think I'll need to show the kids that....

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

PS what's a lunatic like you doing in a solar group? I'm here because
the Sun fits the school day better than the planets (and its
warmer...)

BTW, you are going to show these kids that the moon is the best thing up
there, aren't you?

;-)

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon?
Try the Lunar Observing Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Chuck Taylor" wrote:

The main targets are the school but its huge (by English standards)
2000+ students 11-18. The 16+s should be able to do serious work as
astrophysics is on the curriculum.

Nice to have a school with that curriculum!

Only a handful take it. Last year in England 545,000 15/16 year olds
were in school and took public exams. 458 of them took an astronomy
exam. Pitiful

So some serious aperture would be nice. I live on the west (US) coast near
Puget Sound (Washington) and rarely see a night without dew. Half the time I
feel like I'm swimming out there. So part of your budget needs to include
dew heaters etc. Have you seen the Dewbuster? It's at
http://www.gbronline.com/ronkeating/default.htm along with a review by Rod.
It looks like it would be perfect for nights when the scope operator has his
or her hands full and needs automatic dew heating.

Thanks

Nice! Will you be able to use a school classroom during a night session?

Yes - and the coffee machine

Your idea of an SCT would go well with a smaller dome. You could build it
with a room beneath and add an extension to the room later. Maybe stage one
is build the dome. Stage two is add an additional room with a temporary roof
and stage three is to put a slide off roof on that section for scopes
acquired later?

Must investigate the problems of isolating the scope pier from
activity in the building - or is this a counsel of perfection.

I had to go and covert. I came up with 10k pounds = $17,233 US. That's still
a good start. The dome makes sense from the school's viewpoint and it would
be a constant advertisement to attract interest.

You converted uk pounds into dollars - no need. The astro market is
smaller in the uk and Meade and Celestron have it well stitched up. by
the time it reaches market a scope can well cost more in pounds than
you pay in dollars. It is a constant source of anguish and brits come
back from trips to the states with refractors stuffed down their
trouser legs, their pockets full of eps.

Something like this: http://www.astromart.com/viewad.asp?cid=228421 ? That
might leave you short for the rest of the stuff, but if the clubs could
build the dome etc...

See what I mean - stripped down (new) 16 inch scts cost uk pounds
17,000 - 14 inch is 5,000, the max we are likely to achieve.

If you do go after a 16" SCT, Sol Robbins on the Chinese Refractor list
spent quite a lot of time setting up two or three of them. I believe it was
for a university. He's usually very helpful.

I think always is a better word for Sol's helpfulness.

It's a shame the solar max is past. Have you thought of a Ha system with
video camera?

It may be past max but very lively - and some. Video camera is high on
the list - provide some feed to PCs to give those waiting for ep time
something to look at. The Coronado PST is launching at just the right
time - a low price H-a in a rugged looking unit with very little
fragile stuff sticking out of it. Got to get something together for
the transit in June. I'm thinking 2,000 sets of eclipse glasses for
children to catch some real photons and a camera plus video feed for
live coverage throughtout the school.

I've been watching the sun a little lately (Baader filter) and dropped in to
lurk and pick up some pointers. And as you said, it's a lot warmer during
the day :-)

My wife has been drawing the Sun through my 125/1000 refractor and
Baader for a couple of years - the collection is such a pleasure to
look through on rainy days and nights. There something about eyepiece
drawing that can't be beaten.

Many thanks for your advice - anything that occurs - please let me
know (on or off group: snip the snip to reach me).

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------

"Chuck Taylor" wrote:

The main targets are the school but its huge (by English standards)
2000+ students 11-18. The 16+s should be able to do serious work as
astrophysics is on the curriculum.

Nice to have a school with that curriculum!

Only a handful take it. Last year in England 545,000 15/16 year olds
were in school and took public exams. 458 of them took an astronomy
exam. Pitiful

So some serious aperture would be nice. I live on the west (US) coast near
Puget Sound (Washington) and rarely see a night without dew. Half the time I
feel like I'm swimming out there. So part of your budget needs to include
dew heaters etc. Have you seen the Dewbuster? It's at
http://www.gbronline.com/ronkeating/default.htm along with a review by Rod.
It looks like it would be perfect for nights when the scope operator has his
or her hands full and needs automatic dew heating.

Thanks

Nice! Will you be able to use a school classroom during a night session?

Yes - and the coffee machine

Your idea of an SCT would go well with a smaller dome. You could build it
with a room beneath and add an extension to the room later. Maybe stage one
is build the dome. Stage two is add an additional room with a temporary roof
and stage three is to put a slide off roof on that section for scopes
acquired later?

Must investigate the problems of isolating the scope pier from
activity in the building - or is this a counsel of perfection.

I had to go and covert. I came up with 10k pounds = $17,233 US. That's still
a good start. The dome makes sense from the school's viewpoint and it would
be a constant advertisement to attract interest.

You converted uk pounds into dollars - no need. The astro market is
smaller in the uk and Meade and Celestron have it well stitched up. by
the time it reaches market a scope can well cost more in pounds than
you pay in dollars. It is a constant source of anguish and brits come
back from trips to the states with refractors stuffed down their
trouser legs, their pockets full of eps.

Something like this: http://www.astromart.com/viewad.asp?cid=228421 ? That
might leave you short for the rest of the stuff, but if the clubs could
build the dome etc...

See what I mean - stripped down (new) 16 inch scts cost uk pounds
17,000 - 14 inch is 5,000, the max we are likely to achieve.

If you do go after a 16" SCT, Sol Robbins on the Chinese Refractor list
spent quite a lot of time setting up two or three of them. I believe it was
for a university. He's usually very helpful.

I think always is a better word for Sol's helpfulness.

It's a shame the solar max is past. Have you thought of a Ha system with
video camera?

It may be past max but very lively - and some. Video camera is high on
the list - provide some feed to PCs to give those waiting for ep time
something to look at. The Coronado PST is launching at just the right
time - a low price H-a in a rugged looking unit with very little
fragile stuff sticking out of it. Got to get something together for
the transit in June. I'm thinking 2,000 sets of eclipse glasses for
children to catch some real photons and a camera plus video feed for
live coverage throughtout the school.

I've been watching the sun a little lately (Baader filter) and dropped in to
lurk and pick up some pointers. And as you said, it's a lot warmer during
the day :-)

My wife has been drawing the Sun through my 125/1000 refractor and
Baader for a couple of years - the collection is such a pleasure to
look through on rainy days and nights. There something about eyepiece
drawing that can't be beaten.

Many thanks for your advice - anything that occurs - please let me
know (on or off group: snip the snip to reach me).

-----------------------------
Martin Frey
http://www.hadastro.org.uk
N 51 01 52.2 E 0 47 21.1
-----------------------------