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Yes, it's time to ask some inane layperson's questions again... :-)
I'm now wondering how gravitational lensing can conspire to (apparently) _not_ be unidirectional. E.g., in the case of "Einstein's cross" four images of a distant quasar appears, singling out those four directions, as opposed to a smeared-out circle of light around the object doing the lensing. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? |
#3
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* Michael Richmond:
(Alf P. Steinbach) wrote In addition, if the lensing mass is not spherically symmetric, it can produce asymmetric images even if the alignment between source, lens and observer is perfect. Assymetric, yes. It's not difficult to see that some assymetric distortion (like a transformation plus smearing of an image) would result. It's not even difficult to see that two images can appear, if the source is to the right of the lens then apparently to the left and to the right of the lens. But not identical images. But what about multiple clear and apparently nearly identical images as in "Einstein's Cross"? To get multiple images with ordinary optics (I'm drawing an analogy here) one needs more than more than one lens, or mirrors. From that analogy it seems one needs a lens that has a mass distribution so that it effectively acts as more than one lens, scattered, or, way out perhaps, two lenses in series? Perhaps it might help to look at some lectures describing the topic: http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys240...grav_lens.html There are links to a few movies, plus links to references for further reading. Thank you. It does however not explain multiple images. Instead, it just asserts that they can occur "if [the background source and the lens] line up well enough that the true position of the background source falls within the Einstein ring radius of the lens". I don't understand that. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? |
#4
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It does however not explain multiple images. Instead, it just asserts
that they can occur "if [the background source and the lens] line up well enough that the true position of the background source falls within the Einstein ring radius of the lens". I don't understand that. There is no way around the math; you'll have to read the technical literature on gravitational lensing if you want to understand. One early paper you might read is by Bourassa and Kantowski. The ADS entry for it http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...f6510b0d827235 includes a scanned version of the entire paper. Somewhat more complicated models are included in another early paper in the field, by Padmanabhan and Subramanian: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...f6510b0d829377 Good luck. Michael Richmond |
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* Michael Richmond:
It does however not explain multiple images. Instead, it just asserts that they can occur "if [the background source and the lens] line up well enough that the true position of the background source falls within the Einstein ring radius of the lens". I don't understand that. There is no way around the math; you'll have to read the technical literature on gravitational lensing if you want to understand. One early paper you might read is by Bourassa and Kantowski. The ADS entry for it http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...f6510b0d827235 includes a scanned version of the entire paper. Somewhat more complicated models are included in another early paper in the field, by Padmanabhan and Subramanian: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...f6510b0d829377 Good luck. Yes, thanks, it seems luck is the key word in dechiphering that first mentioned paper, even the presumably clarifying figures... ;-) Here is then my limited understanding, disregarding for now (until last paragraph) the impenetrable paper. Consider three points in space: source, point lens, receiver, not in a straight line. These three points define a plane P. Now the source can emit a photon that goes somewhat to the side of the lens, wrt. to the direction from receiver to lens, and we can vary the distance out from the lens, and for at most one distance for a particular side (assuming the photon doesn't go around the lens one or more times, which I in my naivete think is impossible) it can strike the receiver. Since there are only two sides of the lens in plane P, photons in P can at most define two images of the source. That's what I meant when I wrote that it's easy to visualize _two_ images. But not identical. If the source emits a photon that is not in plane P then the photon path plus lens defines a new plane Q, and the receiver is not in that new plane Q unless the source, lens and receiver are in a straight line. So assuming first they're not in a straight line. In order for that photon to strike the receiver the lens will then have to deflect the photon in a direction normal to the plane Q defined by the original path + lens. I haven't heard of gravity having any sideways effect before. Assuming next that source, lens and receiver are in a straight line. Then the photon can strike the receiver among any of an infinite number of paths, namely those that pass through a cirle or oval around the lens. Which gives the "Einstein ring" effect. Now the only simplifying assumption I see in that is the one about point source, point lens and point receiver. But as far as I can decipher the paper you linked to it claims that -- possibly with spatial extension in the picture -- five or even seven distinct images can appear. I can see that spatial extension can give an "Einstein ring" even when the line-up isn't perfect, but I fail to see how photons can arrive at the receiver when passing through five or seven points around the lens (or in the case of "Einstein's cross", four points), and _not others_. -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? |
#6
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(This is also of interest to sci.physics.research readers; hence the
crosspost.) Alf P. Steinbach wrote: Here is then my limited understanding, disregarding for now (until last paragraph) the impenetrable paper. Unfortunately, I don't have time to say very much, although if I could draw some pictures on a whiteboard I think I could clear up the problem! Since I can't do that in ASCII, let me recommend some excellent resources: Probably my all-time four star scientific visualization site is this: http://www.iam.ubc.ca/~newbury/lenses/lenses.html You won't learn the math from this site (but there's some good supplemental discussion there), but simply playing with the model may help dispell some misconceptions--- plus it's a heck of a lot of fun. To understand what you'll find at Newbury's site, probably all you need can be found in the -third edition- of the excellent textbook by Stephani author = {Hans Stephani}, title = {General Relativity: An Introduction of the Theory of the Gravitational Field}, publisher = {Cambridge University Press}, note = {translated by {J}ohn {S}tewart and {M}artin {P}ollock}, year = 1990} The current (third) edition has a nice concise discussion of the basics of gravitational lensing, which should clear up your question. (Don't get the second or first editions---if you can even find them--- since they lack this section!) For more detail, the Living Reviews article by Wambsganns is excellent: http://www.emis.math.ca/EMIS/journal...-12/index.html Both of these stick to pretty simple models, and are oriented toward gtr students. That's probably fine for your purposes, but for a much more complete discussion of possible models, aimed at serious astronomers, see for example: author = {P. Schneider and J. Ehlers and E.E. Falco}, title = {Gravitational Lenses}, series = {Astronomy and Astrophysics Library}, volume = 14, publisher = {Springer-Verlag}, year = 1992} "T. Essel" (hiding somewhere in cyberspace) |
#7
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On Thu, 1 Jul 2004, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
Yes, thanks, it seems luck is the key word in dechiphering that first mentioned paper, even the presumably clarifying figures... ;-) Sketch some pictures as you read this. It's a bit beyond my ascii-art abilities... On way to think of this is to consider that we and our telescopes are much smaller than the source, lens and distances involved. So much so that on a drawing of that the rays you might trace in geometric optics, we are tiny even compared to the lines! So you can consider those lines as pencils of light larger than the earth. Light within them can be considered parallel rays similar those from a distant object, so if we point a telescope along that pencil we can image the object like any normal object. --The gravitaion lens doesn't form images, it just redirects the light so we can form them, like we do with our eyes and a (flat) mirror. A glass or plastic lens that behaves like a gravitational lens does not have a surface that looks like the surface of a section of a sphere, like a standard lens, it looks like a 1/x curve**. For a standard lens the normal to the surface of the lens gets close to the normal to the plane of the lens as you move towards the center. For a gavitaional lens it gets further away, so it is impossible for a gravitaional lens to focus in the usual sense --it can't even form a virtual image like a concave lense does. But it can cause rays of light that pass by at a given radius to cross at a particular distance, making the ring associated w/ gravitaional lenses. Now if you blocked out (or dispersed) most of the light except for a small bit of the arc, you could image the source, the problem being that normally there are many ovelapping images in the ring. Note that even in the case of a radially symetric lens you could see more than a simple ring: If an source is off center is will produce a diplaced ring, so say we had a black hole with 3 stars arranged in a triangle behind it: A red one, a blue one and a yellow one. There would be 3 rings, a red, a blue and a yellow one interlocking or partially overlapping. Look really cool as a special effect in a movie (hey! Ya gotta put my name in the credits if ya use it!) You might even be able to deconvolve an image out of a full ring. (More commonly small/point sources & distortions in the images are used to try to get info about the shape of the lensing object.) Now with aberration, the pencils of light may converge before they get to the earth, then diverge, or diverge at the outset. It turn out that there is alway one path where the light remains relatively parallel (that corresponds to the direct path) allowing light to reach the earth (but which may be physically blocked by the lensing body). And if things are radially symmetric (and not to strange, like a toroidal glalaxy cluster...) there will be some radius that will form a ring -but- there can be an aberation caused by an over or under mass in part of the lensing object that causes part of the ring to spread it's pencils out, diluting their light so we see nothing, on the other side of the ring this over/under mass may cause a convergance in the pencils before they reach the earth, after that point they diverge and again we see nothing, again -but- at some point along what would have been the ring, between converges too much and diverges is "just right" --since it's along a ring, there are two points, so we add two images. And thus, images are always added in pairs. A more detailed consideration using Huygen's principle show that, in fact my fingers never left my hands during that hand waving: there is always a minimum time path for the light to travel. If I add a new local minima there must be a new local maxima added too and images show up in set of one, three, five, etc. And that's about 10% more than I know :-) 3ch *arguably, in this sense, only the final lens in a telescope makes the image, all the others do is "Bend the light". In fact, the main purpose of the large mirror in most telescopes is to gather light from a large area to a small one --the camera or eyepiece. The same field of view and magmification could be acheived w/ a much smaller telescope. **It is not (or at least I don't mean to imply) it -is- a 1/x curve, only that it looks like one in the sense x^4 "looks" like a parabola. --Some people have plastic "gravitational lenses". Fun and informative to play with a bit if you can find one. |
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