an explanation of Saturn's rings

Hah! I bet I have an explanation of Saturn's rings, including the
ripples and braids. It's just a four-body resonance strange
attractor. There's Saturn. Then there's two very small moons close
together in resonance (7:8 or such). Those moons close together form
a gravitational basin, sort of like the Lagrange points set up by
Sun+Jupiter. And there is a bunch of pebble like stuff orbiting the
center of that basin, like marbles in a bowl. Like the Trojan
asteroids in the Sun+Jupiter's lagrange point. Fancier stuff, like
ring particles interacting or something special about Saturn's
oblateness, wouldn't be relevant.

If that's right, I should have no trouble throwing together a
simulation of it with my orbit applet. I'll try that tonight.

(Bob Jenkins) wrote in message om...
Hah! I bet I have an explanation of Saturn's rings, including the
ripples and braids. It's just a four-body resonance strange
attractor. There's Saturn. Then there's two very small moons close
together in resonance (7:8 or such). Those moons close together form
a gravitational basin, sort of like the Lagrange points set up by
Sun+Jupiter. And there is a bunch of pebble like stuff orbiting the
center of that basin, like marbles in a bowl. Like the Trojan
asteroids in the Sun+Jupiter's lagrange point. Fancier stuff, like
ring particles interacting or something special about Saturn's
oblateness, wouldn't be relevant.

If that's right, I should have no trouble throwing together a
simulation of it with my orbit applet. I'll try that tonight.

I seem to be wrong. Any two nearby moons will precess relative to
each other, because they are near each other, which makes them wobble
back and forth relative to each other if they are in resonance. That
wobbling means that any gravitation basin formed between them is a
moving target.

Google shows up articles suggesting the rings are simple resonances
with single moons.

(Bob Jenkins) wrote in message om...
Hah! I bet I have an explanation of Saturn's rings, including the
ripples and braids. It's just a four-body resonance strange
attractor. There's Saturn. Then there's two very small moons close
together in resonance (7:8 or such). Those moons close together form
a gravitational basin, sort of like the Lagrange points set up by
Sun+Jupiter. And there is a bunch of pebble like stuff orbiting the
center of that basin, like marbles in a bowl. Like the Trojan
asteroids in the Sun+Jupiter's lagrange point. Fancier stuff, like
ring particles interacting or something special about Saturn's
oblateness, wouldn't be relevant.

If that's right, I should have no trouble throwing together a
simulation of it with my orbit applet. I'll try that tonight.

I seem to be wrong. Any two nearby moons will precess relative to
each other, because they are near each other, which makes them wobble
back and forth relative to each other if they are in resonance. That
wobbling means that any gravitation basin formed between them is a
moving target.

Google shows up articles suggesting the rings are simple resonances
with single moons.

Hah! I bet I have an explanation of Saturn's rings, including the
ripples and braids. It's just a four-body resonance

How about magnetic particles making that symmetry within the ring orbits ?

Hah! I bet I have an explanation of Saturn's rings, including the
ripples and braids. It's just a four-body resonance

How about magnetic particles making that symmetry within the ring orbits ?

I tried simulating a massless satellite in a roughtly 5::3 resonance
with a moon orbiting a large planet
(http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/rings.html). It's strobe,
showing the planet and moon exactly once per orbit, so the moon
appears to stay still. Since the satellite moves around, you get the
same pattern you'd get if you filled the whole of the satellite's
orbit with tiny particles. If you watch it for awhile, you'll see it
forms braided waves. However, these waves go out to the edge and in
again. It's symmetric if you flip the image along the line connecting
the planet to the moon. The images we're getting back from Saturn
don't show that symmetry. That lack of symmetry rules out all the
purely gravitational things I can think of.

I tried simulating a massless satellite in a roughtly 5::3 resonance
with a moon orbiting a large planet
(http://burtleburtle.net/bob/physics/rings.html). It's strobe,
showing the planet and moon exactly once per orbit, so the moon
appears to stay still. Since the satellite moves around, you get the
same pattern you'd get if you filled the whole of the satellite's
orbit with tiny particles. If you watch it for awhile, you'll see it
forms braided waves. However, these waves go out to the edge and in
again. It's symmetric if you flip the image along the line connecting
the planet to the moon. The images we're getting back from Saturn
don't show that symmetry. That lack of symmetry rules out all the
purely gravitational things I can think of.

There is a another type of analysis not too much en vogue...that of
thinking about rings being in a location where there is the least
resistence and / or interaction. where a moon sweeps up a region of the
ring well there it goes..a nice hole between rings. All forces and
interactions in the viscinity of where saturn is and what saturn does
and all external forces say where and whe rings should exist no matter
what you arbitarily decide should be the rings origin, Waveyness in the
rings then would have the same general explanation plus the fact that
that rings may also impart their own forces. what i have seen in some
of the pictures coming back is a spiral effect in the rings of globs in
the rings perhaps having enhanced gravity probably due to black body
radiation retention...the same effect has been observed among the
asteroids in asteroid belt. The only explanation for enhanced gravity
of small masses is a new theory of thermodynamics being the actual
cause of gravity (as the effect) such that the sum of energy and the sum
of mass retained by a massive body minus the sum of lost energy and
lost mass over a set period of time will acount for any gravity anomoly
of enhancement. (turns out its not just the anomaly!)

The Thermodynamic Cause of Gravity:
Site Below is due for update and removal of mistakes:

http://www.webspawner.com/users/gravity/index.html

(gravity jones) wrote in message ...
There is a another type of analysis not too much en vogue...that of
thinking about rings being in a location where there is the least
resistence and / or interaction. where a moon sweeps up a region of the
ring well there it goes..a nice hole between rings. All forces and
interactions in the viscinity of where saturn is and what saturn does
and all external forces say where and whe rings should exist no matter
what you arbitarily decide should be the rings origin, Waveyness in the
rings then would have the same general explanation plus the fact that
that rings may also impart their own forces. what i have seen in some
of the pictures coming back is a spiral effect in the rings of globs in
the rings perhaps having enhanced gravity probably due to black body
radiation retention...the same effect has been observed among the
asteroids in asteroid belt. The only explanation for enhanced gravity
of small masses is a new theory of thermodynamics being the actual
cause of gravity (as the effect) such that the sum of energy and the sum
of mass retained by a massive body minus the sum of lost energy and
lost mass over a set period of time will acount for any gravity anomoly
of enncement. (turns out its not just the anomaly!)

The Thermodynamic Cause of Gravity:
Site Below is due for update and removal of mistakes:

http://www.webspawner.com/users/gravity/index.html

I doubt that any new laws of gravity or thermodynamics are required.
However, it is a puzzle why the rings stay so flat and don't evaporate
over time. I'd expect randomly colliding particles to occasionally
get a few km/s push out of the ring plane, and if there's nothing to
stop them, they'd just leave the ring. The smallest particles would
get the biggest push.

Something's got to cause friction, making the particles interact, so
the rings don't boil away. Electric charges would just make it worse.
Magnetic, well, how is that going to work? Especially if the ring is
largely water ice? And there's not enough material for gravity to
hold the rings flat. Which leaves ... an atmosphere? Do the rings
have a clear atmosphere that extends above and below them? That way,
the particles would be large compared to the gas molecules, the gas
would bleed off any extra energy and let them sit in the bottom of any
basin. The ring particles then would be going in circles, not in
resonance with anything. Is there any evidence of such a gas?

In message , Bob
Jenkins writes

I doubt that any new laws of gravity or thermodynamics are required.
However, it is a puzzle why the rings stay so flat and don't evaporate
over time. I'd expect randomly colliding particles to occasionally
get a few km/s push out of the ring plane, and if there's nothing to
stop them, they'd just leave the ring. The smallest particles would
get the biggest push.


Isn't the point that the rings _aren't_ stable, at least over millions
of years? The Voyagers saw differences, and Cassini will see a lot more
detail.
--
What have they got to hide? Release the full Beagle 2 report.
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