ISS Ten Years After

The ISS celebrates the anniversary of the launch of the first
operational segment today.

To commemorate the event BBCs Radio 4 interviewed Science Writer Dr
Chris Riley and Chairman of the Royal Society Lord Rees discuss the
case for and against the ISS as a useful platform in near Earth orbit.
Scientific attitudes are hardening against it as a $100bn boondoggle
that provides almost no useful science. Even the guy who was
supporting it concedes that the science output of ISS so far was at
best "mediocre".

The broadcast went out 0833 on Radio 4 and is online at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/7738972.stm
(scroll down to the right time slot)

About the only thing in its favour is that it has been an
international cooperation and has helped keep Russian rocket
scientists off the payroll of rogue states.

Lord Rees incidentally is in favour of high risk low cost manned space
exploration if it must be done but robotic by preference.

UK residents take note the ISS will be easily visible as the birghtest
moving object on the early evening pass at around 17:59 on Saturday
22nd Nov 2008 (allow a couple of minutes either way depending on where
you live).

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Nov 20, 12:53*pm, Martin Brown
wrote:
The ISS celebrates the anniversary of the launch of the first
operational segment today.

To commemorate the event BBCs Radio 4 interviewed Science Writer Dr
Chris Riley and Chairman of the Royal Society Lord Rees discuss the
case for and against the ISS as a useful platform in near Earth orbit.
Scientific attitudes are hardening against it as a $100bn boondoggle
that provides almost no useful science. Even the guy who was
supporting it concedes that the science output of ISS so far was at
best "mediocre".

The broadcast went out 0833 on Radio 4 and is online at:http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/7738972.stm
(scroll down to the right time slot)

About the only thing in its favour is that it has been an
international cooperation and has helped keep Russian rocket
scientists off the payroll of rogue states.

Lord Rees incidentally is in favour of high risk low cost manned space
exploration if it must be done but robotic by preference.

UK residents take note the ISS will be easily visible as the birghtest
moving object on the early evening pass at around 17:59 on Saturday
22nd Nov 2008 (allow a couple of minutes either way depending on where
you live).

Regards,
Martin Brown

I saw "Ten Years After" playing ISS live in the park way back when.
They were rubbish.

But that was before America had developed firm international oil trade
relations with the "rogue states" and sold its inheritance to any man
with a beard.

It all seemed so innocent back then. Space travel was the stuff of
cards from bubblegum machines.

Now we have surround sound and plasma TVs and porn on the internet but
still no space travel.

Where do we queue for a refund of lost hopes and aspirations?

Martin Brown:
The ISS celebrates the anniversary of the launch of the first
operational segment today.

To commemorate the event BBCs Radio 4 interviewed Science Writer Dr
Chris Riley and Chairman of the Royal Society Lord Rees discuss the
case for and against the ISS as a useful platform in near Earth orbit.
Scientific attitudes are hardening against it as a $100bn boondoggle
that provides almost no useful science. Even the guy who was
supporting it concedes that the science output of ISS so far was at
best "mediocre".

The broadcast went out 0833 on Radio 4 and is online
at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/7738972.stm
(scroll down to the right time slot)

About the only thing in its favour is that it has been an
international cooperation and has helped keep Russian rocket
scientists off the payroll of rogue states.

Lord Rees incidentally is in favour of high risk low cost manned space
exploration if it must be done but robotic by preference.

I'm sure his lordship knows that manned space exploration will be
high-risk and high-cost for as long as we can imagine into the future.
Manned missions are also unnecessary for the foreseeable future. The
best and cheapest science will come from robots, partly due to the
weight penalties imposed on manned craft.

I have pondered the question of when it will make sense to manned
exploration. The answer I keep coming up with is possibly never; once
our robots have found or not found signs that life exists/existed on
Mars and we have fully convinced ourselves that there are no lost
cities on Mars, there will be no _logical_ reason to send men there. I
won't change that view unless our robots find either lost cities or
living cities.

I would not object if the Area 51/face-on-Mars/statue-of-Elvis-on-Mars
er, ah, advocates want to privately fund a manned mission. It would be
even better if they could build a ship large enough to carry all of
them to Mars so that they could all share the great discoveries.

It might be time to think about manned missions after the successful
return to Earth of one or two robotic missions to a nearby star that
has a habitable planet.* I define "nearby star" as meaning a star that
a large manned mission (I'm thinking doctors, nurses, good medical
facilities, glass beads for the natives and then something to kill them
with, for we will surely want to do that) can reach and return from in
the span of a an adult human life; no more than, say, 50-60 years.

*Unless the above mentioned "advocates" have gotten there first, in
which case we quarantine the place.

UK residents take note the ISS will be easily visible as the birghtest
moving object on the early evening pass at around 17:59 on Saturday
22nd Nov 2008 (allow a couple of minutes either way depending on where
you live).

Chris.B:
I saw "Ten Years After" playing ISS live in the park way back when.
They were rubbish.

But that was before America had developed firm international oil trade
relations with the "rogue states" and sold its inheritance to any man
with a beard.

It all seemed so innocent back then. Space travel was the stuff of
cards from bubblegum machines.

Now we have surround sound and plasma TVs and porn on the internet but
still no space travel.

Where do we queue for a refund of lost hopes and aspirations?

We don't. If we stand around waiting we will never get them back.

I'm not naïve enough to think that the inauguration on January 20 will
open a New Era all by itself. But it might provide the framework on
which to launch the era of militant, in-your-face intellectualism and
anti-mediocracy. I still have some details to iron out, but the plan
includes the temporary suspension of some clean-air standards so that
the television stations can be torched. Including PBS, home of the BBC
rerun and the animal snuff-flick. (We've rejected the idea of keeping
the physical plants for use as public libraries as too expensive.) I
haven't yet decided whether we ought to torch the National Geographic
and the Smithsonian for squandering their vast ability to educate, or
simply issue a stern warning: no more dumbed-down science.

Next come the churches. We can't torch the churches (we're restoring
the rule of law, right?) but we can use the law to keep them on their
own property and prevent them from purveying ignorance outside of their
captive audience. I could make a case before Homeland security that
certain of the so-called churches represent a growing threat to our
security and sovereignty and need to be contained. We do get to torch
those "creationist" museums that occupy land where there was no
pre-existing church. We might want to think about torching a few
church-owned Institutes of Higher Ignorance as well. The marshmallows
industry will boom.

While this is going on we are reforming K-12 education. Contrary to
popular belief, this won't cost a lot of money; there are few or no
"lost textbooks" from earlier eras in American history. We need just
one sample of a reading primer or a math book to to put it back into
print. Forget New-Age education horse ****; the efficacy of
rote-and-repetition learning in the early years has a record of success
going back at least 5,000 years, while N.A.H.S. has only falling SAT
scores and dumbed-down spellingz to show. Banish the lie that bad
grammar is OK because that's how language evolves an improves. Language
evolves and improves when K-12 students are punished for breaking the
rules.

Stricter employment standards. PhD creationist? Yes, we have a place
for you on our loading dock. Better take it, because the only other
openings for you are at the sewage treatment plant, and you don't want
to go there because it's a hotbed of bacterial evolution.

Establish the Church of the Curious Mind, but keep it a secret. Isolate
and marginalize the purveyors of ignorance by making "ignorance"
synonymous with fundamentalist religion and turning it into a
pejorative word just as the right has managed to make "liberal,"
"intellectual," and "educated"--the dreams of the Founders--bad words.
Can you guess how they taught the public that education is bad? Yep,
rote and repetition.

Which leads to this: don't underestimate the enemies of education.
They're not dumb.

OK, there's the first four-year term...

What!? That was a rhetorical question!? Oops, sorry.

Davoud

--
Give me a name and I¹ll tell you if the person¹s a terrorist or a Real
American. Timothy James McVeigh? Real American! C'mon, that was too easy. Next!

usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

On Nov 20, 4:39*pm, Davoud shared a fine post.

So there is still intelligent life on earth? :-)

We have been through a lean time for those who can still rub two
syllables together. Now our species has broken absolutely everything
the only way is up. Down is simply not an option any more. Our
grandchildren would not forgive us for wasting another eight years on
such obvious lies. They are already so demoralised that many have
escaped to another dimension rather than try to mend what we have left
behind. Politics has shot itself in the head while aiming for its own
foot. Greed has been proven not to work for several billion who were
never given a choice through the deliberate racism of the neo-nazi
church goers. Who have somehow confused other's morals with their own
self righteousness and glossy images of a snow white Jesus/Father
Christmas Disney-inspired, cartoon-like figure probably from somewhere
safe like Las Vegas.

Our infants are descending into sluthood and gangsterism to the
repetitive, digitally-repaired tunes of the talentless, silicone
enhanced, lisping teenage whores and dullard black thugs who drag the
last glow out of the musical industry's last cigarette butt before
being gratefully stubbed out by parasitic downloafers. The world's
media now manufactures the news and is of a terrifyingly poor quality
similar to the ephemeral trash they themselves invent. Staggering as
they do from one cleb story to the next sportsman's utterances as if
the entire globe and their expense accounts depend on it. Mediocrity
is now laid on thick like artificial advertising honey on tasteless
white bread fit only for the poor.

Life has become like motorised satellite TV. The number of potential
channels is infinite but the content always dire or vacuous. Many now
commute to completely meaningless jobs in front of a computer screen
to play a daily game of The Matrix. They live in identikit bungalows
wherever they are situated on our steaming, polluted mud ball. Those
who actually perform a useful function to society suffer low status
and income. With poor or dangerous working conditions making it ever
more difficult to recruit and keep useful staff in overpriced cities
where they cannot afford to buy a decent home. Every city shopping
street is now exactly the same as every other. The stores are full of
the same Chinese dross regardless of size or geography. Specialisation
has been priced out by endless, tawdry supermarkets staffed by
ignorant, slovenly, part-time children. Or educationally challenged
adults with a degree in rudeness and oral bacteria. Don't get in the
way of the staff, Dear!

sigh

Chris.B wrote:
On Nov 20, 4:39 pm, Davoud shared a fine post.

So there is still intelligent life on earth? :-)

We have been through a lean time for those who can still rub two
syllables together. Now our species has broken absolutely everything
the only way is up. Down is simply not an option any more. Our
grandchildren would not forgive us for wasting another eight years on
such obvious lies. They are already so demoralised that many have
escaped to another dimension rather than try to mend what we have left
behind. Politics has shot itself in the head while aiming for its own
foot. Greed has been proven not to work for several billion who were
never given a choice through the deliberate racism of the neo-nazi
church goers. Who have somehow confused other's morals with their own
self righteousness and glossy images of a snow white Jesus/Father
Christmas Disney-inspired, cartoon-like figure probably from somewhere
safe like Las Vegas.

Our infants are descending into sluthood and gangsterism to the
repetitive, digitally-repaired tunes of the talentless, silicone
enhanced, lisping teenage whores and dullard black thugs who drag the
last glow out of the musical industry's last cigarette butt before
being gratefully stubbed out by parasitic downloafers. The world's
media now manufactures the news and is of a terrifyingly poor quality
similar to the ephemeral trash they themselves invent. Staggering as
they do from one cleb story to the next sportsman's utterances as if
the entire globe and their expense accounts depend on it. Mediocrity
is now laid on thick like artificial advertising honey on tasteless
white bread fit only for the poor.

Life has become like motorised satellite TV. The number of potential
channels is infinite but the content always dire or vacuous. Many now
commute to completely meaningless jobs in front of a computer screen
to play a daily game of The Matrix. They live in identikit bungalows
wherever they are situated on our steaming, polluted mud ball. Those
who actually perform a useful function to society suffer low status
and income. With poor or dangerous working conditions making it ever
more difficult to recruit and keep useful staff in overpriced cities
where they cannot afford to buy a decent home. Every city shopping
street is now exactly the same as every other. The stores are full of
the same Chinese dross regardless of size or geography. Specialisation
has been priced out by endless, tawdry supermarkets staffed by
ignorant, slovenly, part-time children. Or educationally challenged
adults with a degree in rudeness and oral bacteria. Don't get in the
way of the staff, Dear!

sigh

Ok, I've read your diatribe and sadly I find little to disagree with

Abo wrote:

Chris.B wrote:
On Nov 20, 4:39 pm, Davoud shared a fine post.

We have been through a lean time for those who can still rub two
syllables together. Now our species has broken absolutely everything
the only way is up.
snip

Ok, I've read your diatribe and sadly I find little to disagree with

Then y'all are a bunch of misanthropic, pessimistic folks. Must be
Hell to walk around all day with that kind of outlook.

For Pete's sake, you've got clean water, plentiful food, good public
sanitation, and a rather nice place to live. You don't have to burn
yak poop to stay warm in the winter, you have access to a global
computer network, and you can get laid without worrying too much about
acquiring HIV. You don't have people shooting at you on a daily
basis, your leaders are not dictators, and most of your neighbors can
read.

We have it good, and we've done good. "Broken absolutely everything"?
Hardly. Need more food? Invent agriculture. Need to distribute
food? Invent trade. Need to make trade equitable? Invent
mathematics. And on it went from there.

We even invented single malt Scotch fer chrissakes! What's not to
like?

So, Next week on the American Thanksgiving holiday, I will recognize
that I have plenty for which to be thankful.
--
Dave

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:39:33 GMT, Davoud wrote:

I have pondered the question of when it will make sense to manned
exploration. The answer I keep coming up with is possibly never...

It seems to me that there are very useful things that people can do in
terms of exploration that are difficult for robots. The problem is, the
current cost of manned exploration missions is orders of magnitude
greater than robotic missions, and the potential gains are not so large.

I think that manned exploration will make sense when and if we ever
develop a cheap, reliable way to get out of Earth's gravitational well.
That may be a long time.

I don't think a manned presence in an Earth orbiting research station is
a bad thing at all; unfortunately, ISS has never lived up to that
promise. Something more on the scale of Skylab would allow manned
microgravity research at a fraction of the cost of ISS. That, of course,
would allow for a broad expansion of robotic research missions.
_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:39:33 GMT, Davoud wrote:

I have pondered the question of when it will make sense to manned
exploration. The answer I keep coming up with is possibly never...

It seems to me that there are very useful things that people can do in
terms of exploration that are difficult for robots. The problem is, the
current cost of manned exploration missions is orders of magnitude
greater than robotic missions, and the potential gains are not so large.

Dressed in a pressure suit the utility and dexterity of humans is
terrible compared to that of robots. Spanner weilding astronaut losing
tools is not all that uncommon (happened again last week). And they
remain a hazard for a few years. Even on the ground we are reaching the
stage where some very delicate operations are being done by surgeons
operating with robotic tools in a virtual world overlaid onto the real
images from the binocular cameras. In some cases using micro tools and
high magnification beyond anything that a human surgeon could reasonably
be expected to do manually without robotic assistance. eg.

http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php...n1/davinci.xml

It makes no sense to send someone out into space in a clumsy pressure
suit with a spanner and a a monkey wrench if a robot can be made to do
the same job more reliably. The human sits at a nice comfortable
workstation instead.

Interpretting something so new and novel on Mars would require a
geologist on the spot with the right sort of previous experience. But an
untrained human eye would be no more effective than a robot.

I think that manned exploration will make sense when and if we ever
develop a cheap, reliable way to get out of Earth's gravitational well.
That may be a long time.

For my money human space exploration is only really worthwhile when we
run into something that is beyond our robotic technology to handle.

I don't think a manned presence in an Earth orbiting research station is
a bad thing at all; unfortunately, ISS has never lived up to that
promise. Something more on the scale of Skylab would allow manned
microgravity research at a fraction of the cost of ISS. That, of course,
would allow for a broad expansion of robotic research missions.

Unfortunately the ISS is too big to fail. And too expensive to maintain.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
The ISS celebrates the anniversary of the launch of the first
operational segment today.

To commemorate the event BBCs Radio 4 interviewed Science Writer Dr
Chris Riley and Chairman of the Royal Society Lord Rees discuss the
case for and against the ISS as a useful platform in near Earth orbit.
Scientific attitudes are hardening against it as a $100bn boondoggle
that provides almost no useful science. Even the guy who was
supporting it concedes that the science output of ISS so far was at
best "mediocre".


No kidding! And $100B is B.S. It's total cost is at least twice that.