A9/A10 & Antipodal Bomber article

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:27:41 -0600, Pat Flannery wrote:

Coincidentally, I just finished building a 1/72 scale model of the
manned A9/A10 a few days back.

Have any pictures of it? How big is that in 1/72?

I was wondering how the pilot got home. Apparently, after dropping his one ton
bomb, he flew back using turbojets. Not nearly as romantic as Japan's Ohka.

Found this at-
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n1/ww2space.htm

"The most ambitious and, perhaps, delusional of the Nazi space schemes was a 1945
project for an orbital space station armed with a death ray, a huge space mirror.
In 1929, Herman Oberth had proposed a potentially practical space station that
served as the basis for the later project. But the 1945 station was to be one giant
mirror fabricated entirely from metallic sodium. Over-sized V2 rockets were to
carry the thing to its 1500-mile orbit in prefabricated sections. Here, Nazi
spacemen would assemble it , using electricity provided by a system of solar-fired
boilers and steam-driven dynamos. Breathable oxygen would come from pumpkins grown
under flourescent [sic] light. When they were finished, the crew would steer the
station over target nations, focus the sun's rays, and burn cities and boil
reservoirs"

Of course, we resourceful Yanks would have used that boiling water to fuel steam
driven retaliatory ICBMs

Dale

Dale wrote:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:27:41 -0600, Pat Flannery wrote:

Coincidentally, I just finished building a 1/72 scale model of the
manned A9/A10 a few days back.

Have any pictures of it? How big is that in 1/72?

I was wondering how the pilot got home. Apparently, after dropping his one ton
bomb, he flew back using turbojets. Not nearly as romantic as Japan's Ohka.

Found this at-
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n1/ww2space.htm


Another bull**** website. Example:
"The A9/A10 project was a two-stage, hypersonic, semi-ballistic manned
bomber with a planned 3000-mile range. Taking the aerodynamics of the
experimental, winged A4b version of the V2 for their starting point,
the engineers at Germany's Peenemünde rocket center added a
pressurized cockpit, landing gear, flaps, ailerons, elevators, and a
turbojet sustainer engine. They planned to mount this A9 on a huge A10
booster, in essence a V2 grown to monstrous proportions."

Coupla things wrong here. The A-9/A-10 was *never* though of as a
"manned bomber," but as an unmanned ICBM. The "turbojet sustainer" on
the vehicle shown was a ramjet. This vehicle was meant to be a
single-stage research vehicle (think X-15). It did not feature a
jettisonable engine cover as their art shows.

Dale wrote:

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:27:41 -0600, Pat Flannery wrote:



Coincidentally, I just finished building a 1/72 scale model of the
manned A9/A10 a few days back.



Have any pictures of it? How big is that in 1/72?


On its launch pad it stands 15 & 1/4" high.
Building one of these is pretty easy.
First get your hands on a Special Hobbies A-9 or A4b:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/EMW...KET%20PAGE.htm
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/EMW...KET%20PAGE.htm
Depending what you want riding up top.
Then get a DML 1/35th scale V-2:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/V-2...GON%20PAGE.htm.
By happy coincidence the 1/35 scale scale V-2 is almost exactly the
right size to turn into a A10 by shortening it up.
The fintips of the A9 or A4b will just reach the exterior of the rockets
body.
The 1/35 scale V-2's body is molded in seven parts the two lower halves
with the fins, the two-part cylindrical midsection; the two part ogival
nose section, and a nosecap. Discard the nosecap, split the two ogival
nose sections each down their length at their centers. you now have four
petals to surround the upper stage. Sand around 1/16th" or a tad more
off the edges of each of these, and you'll create the channels for the
upper stage's fins to sit in when it's in place. Now take the
cylindrical mid section and cut a ring off it's base around 1/2 to 5/8
long. This will get the rocket's length right when this small ring is
glued to the two part lower section.
On mine I used the swept wing A4b extended with the extra fuel tank for
the ramjet fuel and having the lower fin replaced by the ramjet, as I
wanted to show it as a predecessor to the WvB Ferry Rocket and Shuttle,
and so gave the pilot a ability to land in something not quite as
daunting as the A9 flying surfboard. This meant that it can't separate
from the stage the way the A-9 can by simply sliding out but is going to
have at least two of the petals either open or be jettisoned.
Considering that the A10 was designed for reuse this could be a bit
wasteful, but I'm somewhat surprised that the Germans didn't consider
having the petals open to promote air drag prior to parachute release.
After figuring out the size of the hole needed at the top for the A4b to
slide in, three of the four petals were cut at their top ends and glued
around the cylindrical body ring with the gaps for the fins between the
parts carefully made even ( this is a piece of cake; all you have to do
is line up the rivet lines on the two parts) which was then attached to
the stock tail assembly after a bulkhead and conical blast deflector had
been installed in it. The fourth panel was left off to show the interior
arrangement of the vehicle's stages.
If you were going to use the A4b or A9 and were sure the paint would get
rubbed off, you could just slide the two stages together and remove the
top one for display when you wished.
Unfortunately my camera broke a while back so I don't have any pictures
of it, but I may have some of my 1/35 scale manned A4b with the ramjet
made out of two of the DML V-2 kits.
That thing's cockpit is a tad on the cramped side, and I'd suspect it
would get a bit warm at full speed, but it's interesting because this
could have been one of the main inspirations for the X-15, which also
ended up with that ramjet hanging off the lower tail end; If iI still
have any Jpegs of it, I'll send you one or two.
I sent them to Ron Miller a few years back, and he s going to put them
in the CD-ROM edition of "The Dream Machines".



I was wondering how the pilot got home. Apparently, after dropping his one ton
bomb, he flew back using turbojets. Not nearly as romantic as Japan's Ohka.



Well... I kind of hate to tell you this, but the plan for the A9/A10
was that the pilot _wasn't_ coming home; the pilot was the guidance
system for final targeting, and just like the Ohka or piloted V-1s the
Nazi's also built (but never used AFAIK), the pilot's job was to aim the
missile at something worthwhile, like The Empire State Building, White
House, or major Synagogue, and fly straight into it.
That's why the running board wings on the A9 weren't a problem in the
manned version...you weren't going to be landing.
I imagine the Germans told the pilot he should bail out prior to impact
(they did this with the V-1s) but how would you like to be floating out
of the sky next to the burning ruins of the White House? A crowd will
gather, and they are bound to react badly to your presence and actions.
Some claim there never was a plan to do this manned version, but
extrapolate the V-2's terrible accuracy to transatlantic ranges and
you'd be lucky to hit New York State, much less city. Somebody in Rhode
Island will be sitting around listening to the World Series, when this
big dart-like thing comes out of the sky and blows one of his cows into
Connecticut.
In the case of the Antipodal Bomber, it would fly over the U.S and ditch
in the Pacific, where a German or Japanese sub would pick up the pilot.
Theoretically it could fly completely around the Earth, but that was
with basically no bombload.

Found this at-
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n1/ww2space.htm

"The most ambitious and, perhaps, delusional of the Nazi space schemes was a 1945
project for an orbital space station armed with a death ray, a huge space mirror.
In 1929, Herman Oberth had proposed a potentially practical space station that
served as the basis for the later project. But the 1945 station was to be one giant
mirror fabricated entirely from metallic sodium. Over-sized V2 rockets were to
carry the thing to its 1500-mile orbit in prefabricated sections. Here, Nazi
spacemen would assemble it , using electricity provided by a system of solar-fired
boilers and steam-driven dynamos. Breathable oxygen would come from pumpkins grown
under flourescent [sic] light. When they were finished, the crew would steer the
station over target nations, focus the sun's rays, and burn cities and boil
reservoirs"



That was going to be the dread A9/A10/A11/A12 scheme which used the A9
as the cargo-carrying orbital third stage; that's what turned into WvB's
Collier's Ferry Rocket: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a9a11a12.htm

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
Dale wrote:

On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:27:41 -0600, Pat Flannery wrote:



Coincidentally, I just finished building a 1/72 scale model of the
manned A9/A10 a few days back.



Have any pictures of it? How big is that in 1/72?


On its launch pad it stands 15 & 1/4" high.
Building one of these is pretty easy.
First get your hands on a Special Hobbies A-9 or A4b:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/EMW...KET%20PAGE.htm
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/EMW...KET%20PAGE.htm
Depending what you want riding up top.
Then get a DML 1/35th scale V-2:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/V-2...GON%20PAGE.htm.
By happy coincidence the 1/35 scale scale V-2 is almost exactly the
right size to turn into a A10 by shortening it up.
The fintips of the A9 or A4b will just reach the exterior of the rockets
body.
The 1/35 scale V-2's body is molded in seven parts the two lower halves
with the fins, the two-part cylindrical midsection; the two part ogival
nose section, and a nosecap. Discard the nosecap, split the two ogival
nose sections each down their length at their centers. you now have four
petals to surround the upper stage. Sand around 1/16th" or a tad more
off the edges of each of these, and you'll create the channels for the
upper stage's fins to sit in when it's in place. Now take the
cylindrical mid section and cut a ring off it's base around 1/2 to 5/8
long. This will get the rocket's length right when this small ring is
glued to the two part lower section.
On mine I used the swept wing A4b extended with the extra fuel tank for
the ramjet fuel and having the lower fin replaced by the ramjet, as I
wanted to show it as a predecessor to the WvB Ferry Rocket and Shuttle,
and so gave the pilot a ability to land in something not quite as
daunting as the A9 flying surfboard. This meant that it can't separate
from the stage the way the A-9 can by simply sliding out but is going to
have at least two of the petals either open or be jettisoned.
Considering that the A10 was designed for reuse this could be a bit
wasteful, but I'm somewhat surprised that the Germans didn't consider
having the petals open to promote air drag prior to parachute release.
After figuring out the size of the hole needed at the top for the A4b to
slide in, three of the four petals were cut at their top ends and glued
around the cylindrical body ring with the gaps for the fins between the
parts carefully made even ( this is a piece of cake; all you have to do
is line up the rivet lines on the two parts) which was then attached to
the stock tail assembly after a bulkhead and conical blast deflector had
been installed in it. The fourth panel was left off to show the interior
arrangement of the vehicle's stages.
If you were going to use the A4b or A9 and were sure the paint would get
rubbed off, you could just slide the two stages together and remove the
top one for display when you wished.
Unfortunately my camera broke a while back so I don't have any pictures
of it, but I may have some of my 1/35 scale manned A4b with the ramjet
made out of two of the DML V-2 kits.
That thing's cockpit is a tad on the cramped side, and I'd suspect it
would get a bit warm at full speed, but it's interesting because this
could have been one of the main inspirations for the X-15, which also
ended up with that ramjet hanging off the lower tail end; If iI still
have any Jpegs of it, I'll send you one or two.
I sent them to Ron Miller a few years back, and he s going to put them
in the CD-ROM edition of "The Dream Machines".



I was wondering how the pilot got home. Apparently, after dropping his one ton
bomb, he flew back using turbojets. Not nearly as romantic as Japan's Ohka.



Well... I kind of hate to tell you this, but the plan for the A9/A10
was that the pilot _wasn't_ coming home; the pilot was the guidance
system for final targeting, and just like the Ohka or piloted V-1s the
Nazi's also built (but never used AFAIK), the pilot's job was to aim the
missile at something worthwhile, like The Empire State Building, White
House, or major Synagogue, and fly straight into it.
That's why the running board wings on the A9 weren't a problem in the
manned version...you weren't going to be landing.
I imagine the Germans told the pilot he should bail out prior to impact
(they did this with the V-1s) but how would you like to be floating out
of the sky next to the burning ruins of the White House? A crowd will
gather, and they are bound to react badly to your presence and actions.
Some claim there never was a plan to do this manned version, but
extrapolate the V-2's terrible accuracy to transatlantic ranges and
you'd be lucky to hit New York State, much less city. Somebody in Rhode
Island will be sitting around listening to the World Series, when this
big dart-like thing comes out of the sky and blows one of his cows into
Connecticut.
In the case of the Antipodal Bomber, it would fly over the U.S and ditch
in the Pacific, where a German or Japanese sub would pick up the pilot.
Theoretically it could fly completely around the Earth, but that was
with basically no bombload.

Found this at-
http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v1/v1n1/ww2space.htm

"The most ambitious and, perhaps, delusional of the Nazi space schemes was a 1945
project for an orbital space station armed with a death ray, a huge space mirror.
In 1929, Herman Oberth had proposed a potentially practical space station that
served as the basis for the later project. But the 1945 station was to be one giant
mirror fabricated entirely from metallic sodium. Over-sized V2 rockets were to
carry the thing to its 1500-mile orbit in prefabricated sections. Here, Nazi
spacemen would assemble it , using electricity provided by a system of solar-fired
boilers and steam-driven dynamos. Breathable oxygen would come from pumpkins grown
under flourescent [sic] light. When they were finished, the crew would steer the
station over target nations, focus the sun's rays, and burn cities and boil
reservoirs"



That was going to be the dread A9/A10/A11/A12 scheme which used the A9
as the cargo-carrying orbital third stage; that's what turned into WvB's
Collier's Ferry Rocket: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a9a11a12.htm

Pat

On 21 Dec 2006 12:20:17 -0800, wrote:

Somebody in Rhode
Island will be sitting around listening to the World Series, when this
big dart-like thing comes out of the sky and blows one of his cows into
Connecticut.

....Actually, hitting Rhode Island would have been equivalent to
hitting a needle in a haystack. Remember, when the Cowsills moved
away, the state's population decreased by 2/3.

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

wrote:



Coupla things wrong here. The A-9/A-10 was *never* though of as a
"manned bomber," but as an unmanned ICBM.


There are existing WW II drawings of a manned A9 swept-wing version
showing cutaways of the interior; von Braun was pitching this to the
Luftwaffe as a a high altitude supersonic reconnaissance plane, but as
the Luftwaffe pointed out they didn't quite need _that_ level of
performance to be safe from allied fighters.
This thing is historically interesting, as it's what got him icharged by
the Gestapo with ignoring work on the V-2 to concentrate on manned
spaceflight instead. He was also talking about flying a pilot over the
Atlantic in 30 minutes, which is something the manned A-9 couldn't do,
so he must have been referring to some sort on manned derivitive of the
A9/A10.
The biggest argument for a manned version of a A9/A10 is accuracy...even
over its range of 200 miles the V-2 was coming down inside a ovoid
around 8 miles wide by 12 miles long, and if you start extrapolating
that to the distance from western Spain (the original planned A9/A10
launch site) to the U.S. eastern seaboard (3,000 miles) you end up with
an ovoid 120 miles wide by 180 miles long in which somewhere a one-tonne
explosive charge is going to land. And doesn't even take into account
the staging of the vehicle or inaccuracies as the A-9 skips in and out
of the atmosphere.
In the absence of some sort of homing system for the rocket (such as a
radio beacon cunningly planted by Nazi spies inside a loaf of
Pumpernickel bread on the observation deck of the Empire State Building)
the A9 is going to come down just about anywhere, which is strategically
worthless. You need the pilot to guide it to the target. Yet the project
stays active at a low level during the whole of WW II and suddenly gets
pushed forward at the very end, which means the high command thinks
there's some virtue in it.
It took approximately forever for the Germans to completly fess up about
those Reichenberg manned V-1s, and I imagine neither von Braun or the
U.S. Army thought it was going to help matters much if something like
transatlantic kamikazes got mentioned in the press.
As far as the jettisonable cover over the ramjet inlet, I've never seen
any info on this, but it's a good idea to decrease drag while doing
rocket flight in the stand-alone A-9 reconnaissance version, or protect
the ramjet from reentry heating in the A9/A10 version, so I wouldn't be
at all surprised if it was incorporated in the final design. It's
interesting to note that early on when they are doing the work on the A9
upper stage it uses the dart-type wing, but when they get around to the
A4b tests at the end of the war, it has swept wings. Although these
would give it higher drag and a slower approach speed to target, they
would have enhanced its maneuverability and cross-range in a manned
version over the slim gothic delta concept, and that would be a benefit
to a manned derivative.

The "turbojet sustainer" on
the vehicle shown was a ramjet. This vehicle was meant to be a
single-stage research vehicle (think X-15).


It was pitched as a reconnaissance machine; it would fly out over the
target to be photographed on rocket power at very high altitude, take
its photos, descend back into the lower atmosphere, and fly back home
under ramjet power.
The whole thing is the starting point for the built, but never flown,
North American NA-704 XSSM-A-2 rocket/ramjet missile which evolved into
the G-26 Navaho missile.

Pat

wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:


Dale wrote:



Hit the send button a bit fast here? :-)

Pat

Pat Flannery wrote:
wrote:



Coupla things wrong here. The A-9/A-10 was *never* though of as a
"manned bomber," but as an unmanned ICBM.


There are existing WW II drawings of a manned A9 swept-wing version
showing cutaways of the interior; von Braun was pitching this to the
Luftwaffe as a a high altitude supersonic reconnaissance plane,

Actually... he was pitching that to the *United* *States* Air Force.
Exactly what role, if any, this had in wartime is at best uncertain. It
had no military equipment, nor room for any such. It was a go-fast
vehicel with a paylaod that consisted wholly of the pilot.

He was also talking about flying a pilot over the
Atlantic in 30 minutes, which is something the manned A-9 couldn't do,
so he must have been referring to some sort on manned derivitive of the
A9/A10.

Von Braun talked about a *lot* of things psot war that appear to be at
best massive exagerations, designed to make himself look more appealing
to the US Army while at Fort Bliss.


The biggest argument for a manned version of a A9/A10 is accuracy...

Wrong. There is no evidence whatsoever for a manned A9/A10 ICBM. There
was thought about using U-boats near the US coast for terminal
guidance.



the A9 is going to come down just about anywhere, which is strategically
worthless.

Which is the primary reason why the program was terminated.

Yet the project
stays active at a low level during the whole of WW II ...

Yes, the guys who initially worked on kept noodling with it. That was
about it. It's like a couple VentureStar engineers who keep talking
about it over lunch.

and suddenly gets
pushed forward at the very end, which means the high command thinks
there's some virtue in it.

In the last days the high command was insanely desperate.


As far as the jettisonable cover over the ramjet inlet, I've never seen
any info on this, but it's a good idea to decrease drag while doing
rocket flight in the stand-alone A-9 reconnaissance version, or protect
the ramjet from reentry heating in the A9/A10 version, so I wouldn't be
at all surprised if it was incorporated in the final design.

Except none of those "designs" existed until the 1990's, it appears.

It's
interesting to note that early on when they are doing the work on the A9
upper stage it uses the dart-type wing, but when they get around to the
A4b tests at the end of the war, it has swept wings.

The reason for this described elsewhere.


The "turbojet sustainer" on
the vehicle shown was a ramjet. This vehicle was meant to be a
single-stage research vehicle (think X-15).


It was pitched as a reconnaissance machine

No, it wasn't.

Pat Flannery wrote:
wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote:


Dale wrote:



Hit the send button a bit fast here? :-)

No. Google barfed up an "error" message after I hit send... clearly the
whole thing didn't go through. Google has been getting screwy lately.

Pat Flannery wrote:

That's why the running board wings on the A9 weren't a problem in the
manned version...you weren't going to be landing.

Wrong. The initial design with the strakes was found to be
aerodynamically unstable, and thus more conventional wings were
added... along with studies for *less* conventional wings. it had
nothign to do with manueverability, but with extending glide range
while remaining stable.

"The most ambitious and, perhaps, delusional of the Nazi space schemes was a 1945
project for an orbital space station armed with a death ray, a huge space mirror.


Which seemed to exist *nowhere* except in the mind of some hack
journalist at "Life" magazine and his artist buddy. The description
faintly matches up with an idea published by oberth in the late 1920's,
but only faintly. The design as described is stunningly flawed and
unworkable; von braun's team would have figured it out in about 10
seconds. Von braun *did*, on the other hand, have full knowledge of
Oberths idea, which was vastly less flawed (but still flawed).


"Raumwaffe, 1946" is every bit as full of post-war bull**** as stories
about completed German nuclear bombs or supersonic Nazi flying saucers.
One should be careful not to take Amazing Stories uncritically.