NASA's Moon base plans

Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?

--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 09"
Lon -71° 04' 32"

"Rick Evans" wrote:

Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?


It, apparently, will be a sort of "proof-of-concept" for bases on
Mars. At least that's how I see: "The habitat will function as a
testbed for technologies that will be needed for future travel to Mars
and beyond".


Eugene L Griessel

If you file it, you will know where it is but never need it.
If you don't file it, you'll need it but never know where it is.

"Rick Evans" wrote in message
news:YKddh.1986$g_3.114@trndny02...
Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?

--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 09"
Lon -71° 04' 32"

Happens that two NASA engineers from the Lewis-Glenn facility here did a
presentation at our astronomy club in October on the new program. Part of
it is to have a base as a jumping off point for future missions to Mars.
And of course to learn more about the Moon itself as we still have quite a
few questions.

I suspects you already knew that.

"John Nichols" wrote in message
...

"Rick Evans" wrote in message
news:YKddh.1986$g_3.114@trndny02...
Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?

Happens that two NASA engineers from the Lewis-Glenn facility here did a
presentation at our astronomy club in October on the new program. Part of
it is to have a base as a jumping off point for future missions to Mars.

Why jump off the Earth with all its manufacturing infrastructure and
human intellectual and labor capital only to stop at the desert
to end all deserts as a jumping off point? Using the Moon to "jump off"
to Mars
is isn't even a good "poor justification". But I guess for the choir
the argument works.

And of course to learn more about the Moon itself as we still have quite a
few questions.

That can probably be more than adequately addressed with fleets of
robots with
tons of dough for other R&D endeavors. AI and other robotics spin-offs
are
likely dividends. Me suspects we have made much progress in robotics
since 1969.
And, methinks you already knew that. ;-)

--
Rick Evans
----------------------------------------------------------------
Lat +42° 11' 09"
Lon -71° 04' 32"

Eugene Griessel wrote:
"Rick Evans" wrote:

Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?


It, apparently, will be a sort of "proof-of-concept" for bases on
Mars. At least that's how I see: "The habitat will function as a
testbed for technologies that will be needed for future travel to Mars
and beyond".

And why do we want to go to Mars? Don't get me wrong, I think it would
be cool and all, but it wouldn't be of any significant scientific value,
and it would be a major drain on real research as well as the economy in
general. The "Lets go to the Moon" distraction has done its political
duty for W. Lets not get suckered by it, and move on.


Shawn

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:23:31 -0700, Shawn
wrote:

And why do we want to go to Mars? Don't get me wrong, I think it would
be cool and all, but it wouldn't be of any significant scientific value...

It _could_ be of huge scientific value, but so could a space station.
The latter hasn't been, and I expect you are correct that the former
wouldn't be, either. Not because the concept is flawed, but because the
direction is.


and it would be a major drain on real research as well as the economy in
general.

That's the real issue. I'm all for placing more resources into space
exploration, but until we do, the limited funds are best reserved for
unmanned missions. It is important to get ourselves off the Earth, but
we aren't quite ready.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Rick Evans wrote:
Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?

Those of you who go along with the people like Mr. Evans, who constantly
criticize the ISS, take note. Now these same people are going after a
moonbase. If there was a plan to go to Mars for a 2-year, 3-day trip I
guarantee you these same people would criticize that too, but on the
basis that we should not bother to go just for a publicity stunt. One
begins to question whether or not these people share the dream of human
spaceflight at all...

The fact is the ISS and moonbase are baby steps toward developing a
capability for humans to be free of the earth. Anyone who truly shares
that dream should be able to see that; as they say, you have to crawl
before you can walk. Remember *that* the next time someone says the ISS
is a huge waste of money and you are tempted to agree with them. You
can't have it both ways; either you support human spaceflight or you
don't. Instead of whining about goals and questioning whether or not we
should do these things now, if you share the dream of human spaceflight
then support it! And then demand that your money be spent efficiently.

"Chris L Peterson" wrote:
It is important to get ourselves off the Earth, but
we aren't quite ready

And we never will be ready until we make the effort! The ISS, and a
moonbase are us trying, are us moving forward! Every long journey
begins with a few small steps. I'll never understand how so many
apparently smart people fail to see that!

Greg

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply take out your eye

Greg Crinklaw wrote:

snip

can't have it both ways; either you support human spaceflight or you
don't. Instead of whining about goals and questioning whether or not we
should do these things now, if you share the dream of human spaceflight
then support it! And then demand that your money be spent efficiently.

That works for me. Manned spaceflight, without foreseeable economic (ie
profit) or novel scientific return, is just stupid. It only serves pork
barrel interests or as a distraction from more important issues. It
won't pay down our national debt, get us out of Iraq with our dignity
intact, or improve science education in the nations schools.
That unsupportive enough for you Greg?

"Chris L Peterson" wrote:
It is important to get ourselves off the Earth, but
we aren't quite ready

And we never will be ready until we make the effort! The ISS, and a
moonbase are us trying, are us moving forward! Every long journey
begins with a few small steps. I'll never understand how so many
apparently smart people fail to see that!

Why try now? The US (I mean, who else are we really talking about?) is
incredibly thinly stretched financially. Manned space exploration
will be an economic black hole well into the future. The Earth can
still sustain humanity for a long time to come. Perhaps not in the late
20th century fashion we're accustomed to, but that's another OT thread.
Probes explore better and cheaper (Magellan did not have probe ships
BTW ;-) )
What's the point?



Shawn

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:40:29 -0700, Greg Crinklaw
wrote:

"Chris L Peterson" wrote:
It is important to get ourselves off the Earth, but
we aren't quite ready

And we never will be ready until we make the effort! The ISS, and a
moonbase are us trying, are us moving forward! Every long journey
begins with a few small steps. I'll never understand how so many
apparently smart people fail to see that!

I understand that a long journey begins with a few small steps. What I
don't see is the ISS (or the proposed lunar and martian missions)
providing those steps. They may even be steps in the wrong direction: by
producing so little and costing so much, they ultimately discourage
public support for important exploration. And public support is crucial.

As I said before, I fully support the concept of a strong human presence
in space. But not until it is approached in a very different way than I
see happening now. And certainly not until there is far more money
devoted to space science. With the current limited budgets, I'd stick
with unmanned missions. They unquestionably represent a significant
return on investment.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Greg Crinklaw wrote:

Rick Evans wrote:
Shouldn't they have to explain the purpose of this
$100 billion Moondoggle besides 'The purpose of the
Moon base is to have a Moon base'?

Those of you who go along with the people like Mr. Evans, who constantly
criticize the ISS, take note. Now these same people are going after a
moonbase. If there was a plan to go to Mars for a 2-year, 3-day trip I
guarantee you these same people would criticize that too, but on the
basis that we should not bother to go just for a publicity stunt. One
begins to question whether or not these people share the dream of human
spaceflight at all...

Yes. We do, but not until we have a viable technology for doing it cost
effectively and with a reasonable chance of success.

The fact is the ISS and moonbase are baby steps toward developing a
capability for humans to be free of the earth. Anyone who truly shares
that dream should be able to see that; as they say, you have to crawl
before you can walk. Remember *that* the next time someone says the ISS
is a huge waste of money and you are tempted to agree with them.

The ISS is a monumental waste of time and money and has yet to produce
any worthwhile science. By comparison plenty of amazing results have
come from unmanned probes and telescopes that have cost only a tiny
fraction of what that useless orbital Boondoggle has taken so far. And
it still isn't finished - probably never will be.

can't have it both ways; either you support human spaceflight or you
don't. Instead of whining about goals and questioning whether or not we
should do these things now, if you share the dream of human spaceflight
then support it! And then demand that your money be spent efficiently.

I would much rather it was spent on real science rather than tilting at
windmills.

"Chris L Peterson" wrote:
It is important to get ourselves off the Earth, but
we aren't quite ready

And we never will be ready until we make the effort!

Not true. Eventually when we have mastered fusion power it will be
realistic to travel between the planets with a manned space ship. But
until we get past the slow chemical rockets stage it is a lot simpler
to send robots that can be conveniently sterilised to avoid mucking up
the planet with terrestrial microbes unnecessarily (something we may
already have done). Sometimes it is better to wait until you have the
right tools for the job.

It is probably only worth sending people off to Mars if we find
something so interesting or challenging to understand that we cannot
use autonomous robots to do the job.

The ISS, and a
moonbase are us trying, are us moving forward! Every long journey
begins with a few small steps. I'll never understand how so many
apparently smart people fail to see that!

It is a worthless political publicity stunt. And science research will
suffer because of it.

Regards,
Martin Brown