Bad Astronomy review of "Superman Returns"

"Bill Steele" wrote in message
...

*My* nitpick is that if Krypton posesses the knowledge of many galaxies
it means interstellar travel is commonplace to them. Jor-El even says
"Neither I nor my wife will leave Krypton." So there had to be zillions
of Kryptonians all over the universe, so Kal-El isn't exactly the "last
son of Krypton." And you'd think Earth would be a real popular vacation
spot.

The way they explained it in the comic books was the Krypton easily had the
technology for space travel, but it was legally suppressed. Seems there had
been a problem in the past with some would-be despots exiling political
rivals into space. So what Jor-El was doing was highly illegal.

--


Regards,
Mike Combs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth
I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Aragorn

On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:25:47 -0500, "Mike Combs"
wrote:

The way they explained it in the comic books was the Krypton easily had the
technology for space travel, but it was legally suppressed. Seems there had
been a problem in the past with some would-be despots exiling political
rivals into space. So what Jor-El was doing was highly illegal.

No matter the explanation, this is a major continuity gaffe that cannot be
reconciled. If Krypton knew of 28 other [solar systems], and Jor-el as a
private citizen had the means to send his son in a rocket to earth, Krypton
should have been a thriving spacefaring society, and many of its people
should have been off-world at the time of the explosion.

In sci.physics George Peatty wrote:
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:25:47 -0500, "Mike Combs"
wrote:

The way they explained it in the comic books was the Krypton easily had the
technology for space travel, but it was legally suppressed. Seems there had
been a problem in the past with some would-be despots exiling political
rivals into space. So what Jor-El was doing was highly illegal.

No matter the explanation, this is a major continuity gaffe that cannot be
reconciled. If Krypton knew of 28 other [solar systems], and Jor-el as a
private citizen had the means to send his son in a rocket to earth, Krypton
should have been a thriving spacefaring society, and many of its people
should have been off-world at the time of the explosion.

I can't believe I'm discussing the motivations of comic characters...

Could be the Kryptonians were xenophobic and/or had little interest in
anything outside of their society.

How come the Europeans did extensive exploration and discovered (among
other things) the New World and the Asians did not?

The technologies were comperable. Hell, the Koreans had iron clad warships
in the 14th century, long before the West had them. If they had had
any interest in doing so, the Koreans could have wiped out both the
Spanish and English fleets of the time. Yet they didn't.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article , George Peatty
wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:25:47 -0500, "Mike Combs"
wrote:

The way they explained it in the comic books was the Krypton easily had the
technology for space travel, but it was legally suppressed. Seems there had
been a problem in the past with some would-be despots exiling political
rivals into space. So what Jor-El was doing was highly illegal.

No matter the explanation, this is a major continuity gaffe that cannot be
reconciled. If Krypton knew of 28 other [solar systems], and Jor-el as a
private citizen had the means to send his son in a rocket to earth, Krypton
should have been a thriving spacefaring society, and many of its people
should have been off-world at the time of the explosion.


Ma Kent gets a line in the kitchen scene that hints there may be other
Kryptonians who were off-planet at the time of the explosion. It's
right before the "you're never alone" stuff.

Even the Silver Age comics screwed this space-travel thing up all the
time. Krypton was routinely visited by alien cultures, and
Kryptonopolis even had a spaceport. It's not likely that a
scientifically advanced culture capable of operating a spaceport would
not have even rudimentary star travel; it would at least have borrowed
the technology, if not develop it on its own. There was *some*
near-space travel, though; for instance, Kryptonians lived on the moon
that Jax-Ur blew up, and Kal-El's mother Lara was an astronaut in
training.

"Mike Combs" wrote in message
...
"Bill Steele" wrote in message
...

*My* nitpick is that if Krypton posesses the knowledge of many galaxies
it means interstellar travel is commonplace to them. Jor-El even says
"Neither I nor my wife will leave Krypton." So there had to be zillions
of Kryptonians all over the universe, so Kal-El isn't exactly the "last
son of Krypton." And you'd think Earth would be a real popular vacation
spot.

The way they explained it in the comic books was the Krypton easily had
the technology for space travel, but it was legally suppressed. Seems
there had been a problem in the past with some would-be despots exiling
political rivals into space. So what Jor-El was doing was highly illegal.


Post Crisis Krypton is 50 light years away from Earth, and the reason
Kryptonians didn't leave the planet is that in earlier times they were
afraid of contamination by foreign ideas and created a device to ensure they
would remain 'pure'- the Eradicator. The Eradicator modified all
Kryptonians genetically and the planet itself. Any alien who came to
Krypton would die. Any Kryptonian who left Krypton would die. One of the
things Jor-El discovered in his research was what the Eradicator had done
and how to treat himself so his son wouldn't inherit that trait.

And, 'cause I'm a geek... (and 'cause 'Man of Steel' limited series and
'World of Kypton' limited series are my bibles... The Eradicator stuff came
later in the regular comics)


Once upon a time Krypton was verdant and vastly technologically advanced.
They maintained their bodes by using clones (kept in suspended animation-
meat, not people) for replacement. A kryptonian mother had some /ideas/
about a proper wife for her son, and had one of her clones brought out of
suspended animation and allowed to develop a mind and a personality and was
presented as an ordinary Kryptonian girl. Until that was done (in secret)
no Kryptonian had even the idea that it was remotely possible under any
circumstances for the spare parts repositories to actually become people.

This was discovered and publicized and the **** hit the fan. Most
Kryptonians considered it a unique case and wanted to maintain the statues
quo. A small group called 'Black Zero' considered all of Kryptonian society
to be cannibalistic and that all Krypton should be punished for its
horrendous sins. A civil war started. 1000 years later it finally ended.
By that time Krypton was a barren desert. The last battle of the war was
fought againt the very man who had started it (the son, who had been thought
to have died in the first battle) and who had been building a weapon that
would destroy the planet. He was killed, and the weapon destroyed.

By this time more than just the planet had been sterilized- the Kryptonians
themselves now had sterile souls. They lived their lives in their life
support suits that kept them healthy and was a barrier to the world, and
lived in vast towers that kept them seperate from each other. They didn't
even need to meet to reproduce- cell samples were taken and grown in
artifical wombs. They had the power to make Krypton green again, but they
didn't bother because they didn't care.

Jor-El was very much a throwback. He was emotional and vibrant and curious,
and he was the only Kryptonian like that. His curiosity led him to
investigate and discover many things that had been forgotten in the archives
(the civil war, the weapon destroyed at the end, and the Eradicator, among
other things). Hos emotionalism also led him to fall in love with the woman
who was chosen to be the mother of his child. Unfortunately part of the
reason he discovered these things was in the course of investigating a
mysterious radiation sickness that was killing millions. The weapon hadn't
been destroyed. It may not even have been damaged. It's function was to
transmute Krypton's core into a radioactive element that when built to
critical mass would annhilate the planet. He had his son's birthing matrix
attached to an experimental rocket model he'd built and sent to a planet he
thought would be best for him. There wasn't time for anything else once he
discovered what was happening and any other Kryptonian leaving the planet
would have been killed by the Eradicator effect anyway.

The Eradicator itself had been removed from the planet hundreds of thousands
of years before. (not by a Kryptonian obviously, but by the alien missionary
who had been the initial target of the Eradicator, and whose preaching had
been the motivation for its creation. Ironically the Eradicator didn't
work on him) Eventually Superman gains possession of the Eradicator and
brings it to Earth, when in it's attempts to preserve Krypton by recreating
the lost planet on Earth it is what actually creates Superman's Fortress of
Solitude. (of course it has to be slapped down when it tries to turn humans
into Kryptonians and Earth into another Krypton.

All the Kryptonian technology Superman has traces its origin to the
Eradicator. It created the Fortress, it brought the artifacts from Krypton
through the Phantom Zone to the Fortress to begin with, and it created the
robots that maintain the Fortress.

You'll notice there's a /slight/ problem regarding the other Kryptonians who
are a hallowed part of the mythos- they can't exist.

Yeah...
....
....
....

When Superman 'died' the government tried to clone him. The early cloning
technology had created the Bizarros, but the new stuff (predicated on
modifying human DNA to resemble Kryptonian DNA since Kryptonian DNA couldn't
be cloned directly) created 'Superboy'.

Foolishly, the writers have not used this concept to explain and justify the
existance of other 'Kryptonians'. It could be used for a Supergirl, Beppo
the super-monkey, and even Streaky the super-cat. *Anything*.

Oh well...

Shawn Wilson wrote:


The Eradicator itself had been removed from the planet hundreds of thousands
of years before. (not by a Kryptonian obviously, but by the alien missionary
who had been the initial target of the Eradicator, and whose preaching had
been the motivation for its creation. Ironically the Eradicator didn't
work on him) Eventually Superman gains possession of the Eradicator and
brings it to Earth, when in it's attempts to preserve Krypton by recreating
the lost planet on Earth it is what actually creates Superman's Fortress of
Solitude. (of course it has to be slapped down when it tries to turn humans
into Kryptonians and Earth into another Krypton.

All the Kryptonian technology Superman has traces its origin to the
Eradicator. It created the Fortress, it brought the artifacts from Krypton
through the Phantom Zone to the Fortress to begin with, and it created the
robots that maintain the Fortress.

You'll notice there's a /slight/ problem regarding the other Kryptonians who
are a hallowed part of the mythos- they can't exist.

Yeah...
...
...
...

When Superman 'died' the government tried to clone him. The early cloning
technology had created the Bizarros, but the new stuff (predicated on
modifying human DNA to resemble Kryptonian DNA since Kryptonian DNA couldn't
be cloned directly) created 'Superboy'.

Foolishly, the writers have not used this concept to explain and justify the
existance of other 'Kryptonians'. It could be used for a Supergirl, Beppo
the super-monkey, and even Streaky the super-cat. *Anything*.

Oh well...

All of that is pretty cool. Is this information parcelled out over
multiple issues and/or years of Superman in dribs and drabs as they
thought of it, or is it in fairly concise storyline? I'd be interested
in reading that graphic novel.

I don't follow the storylines of comics very closely (despite starting
to read comics again after a two decade hiatus), so I'm curious if the
extended Superman family still exists. The supermonkey, superhorse,
supersecond-cousin-once-removed-on-his-mother's-side stuff always
struck me as silly.

Doug

"trike" wrote in message
ups.com...

All of that is pretty cool. Is this information parcelled out over
multiple issues and/or years of Superman in dribs and drabs as they
thought of it, or is it in fairly concise storyline? I'd be interested
in reading that graphic novel.


Dribs and drabs over a period of years in various places. Krypton as a
sterile society and a sterile planet was in the 'Man of Steel' limited
series, as was Bizarro as a failed cloning attempt. Krypton's civil war and
the doomsday device and Jor-El's discovery thereof were in 'World of
Krypton' limited series. The Eradicator and every thing associated with it
were a number of issues in the regular series, as was Superboy and his
cloning technique.

(note- when John Byrne rebooted Superman a number of projects and ideas were
conceived at that time. The 'Man of Steel' limited series (as opposed to
the ongoing comic) was the origin and basics, and then later three other
limited series fleshed out the details- World of Krypton (good), World of
Smallville (crap), and World of Metropolis (ok))




I don't follow the storylines of comics very closely (despite starting
to read comics again after a two decade hiatus), so I'm curious if the
extended Superman family still exists.


Not really. Some elements exist and there have been clumsy attempts to make
them work, but they didn't. It started with a normal dog that was named
Krypto, but wasn't actually Superman's pet (just a dog, named by a Superman
fan). He eventually ended up as Superboy's pet, then was written out.
Later Superman acquired (from an alternate dimension) a super powered Krypto
who eventually ended up as Superboy's pet (yes, again) (and Superboy was
being fostered by the Kents, which could have been an excellent way to have
Superboy stories (Superman didn't put on a costume until he was an adult in
post-Crisis continuity) except they had already established his character as
too much of a punk to suddenly be transformed into a goody-two shoes).

There have been multiple attempts at Supergirl (yes, multiple different
characters all named Supergirl and associated with Superman), all of which
have been pathetic. (sadly they *have* a much more interesting (and much
better character) super powered nice girl they hardly do anything with- Mary
Marvel)

Cat, monkey, horse and whatever have not be reintroduced as far as I know.




The supermonkey, superhorse,
supersecond-cousin-once-removed-on-his-mother's-side stuff always
struck me as silly.


Definitely, but it was *fun*. A lot of that stuff was fun because it was
silly. It can be worked into modern continuity and modern sensibility with
little effort, but the writers haven't. We already know the chief cloner in
the DC universe (Dabney Donovan) is a loon. Why not use Superman DNA
techniques to make a super horse? He's made weirder things. A handful of
animals, and handful of people, and we have the original family without
violating the Superman is unique and the sole survivor of Krypton rule. You
could even have 'kryptonian' villains.

They could have kept the one kind of Kryptonite *and* introduced red
kryptonite by merely having red Kryptonite be a creation of Mxyzptlk, but
they missed that boat too. (which is a damn shame because they literally
came thisclose to doing it by having Mxyzptlk create a 'red kryptonite' that
didn't do anything at all in one story)

I think Superman could be retconned in ways that don't change existing
post-Crisis continuity much, but which does recreate much of the silver age
mythos. Modern comics need more fun and sillyness anyway.


You might see a trade paperback called 'Superman Birthright' out there which
purports to be his origin. Ignore it entirely. They tried to align the
comics and the Smallville TV series by giving Superman a more Smallville
like backstory, but they changed too many things that had been incredibly
firmly established in the process (like making Superman and Lex Luthor
contemporaries *and* classmates when it has been crystal clear for 20 years
that Lex is an entire generation older and they didn't meet until Superman
came to Metropolis). Lex was elected *President* and they aren't saying
Clark is nearly 40 for christssake.

I have only read comics sporadically for several years now. I was deep into
it for about ten years (starting right after Crisis) but they all went to
hell about the same time. (I used to *love Spider-Man until all the clone
bull**** and every story being 'how can we make Peter even more miserable
now?')

In article . com,
"trike" wrote:

I don't follow the storylines of comics very closely (despite starting
to read comics again after a two decade hiatus), so I'm curious if the
extended Superman family still exists. The supermonkey, superhorse,
supersecond-cousin-once-removed-on-his-mother's-side stuff always
struck me as silly.

Nearly all origin stories are silly, because they're thought up after
marketing decides they need a character. Hard water fumes indeed!

Mary Marvel, despite being thought up by marketing, was an interesting
exception, especially as reimagined for the Power of Shazam series.