Refractor vs. Reflector?

Disclaimer: I'm a newbie, not just to the group but to amateur
astronomy as well. I've got a good math/sci background and I've done
a great deal of research both in the group and elsewhere so I *think*
I've got a basic grasp of what's involved.

Background: I'm getting into this because my 6 year old son is
incredibly into astronomy and has been for the past 8-10 months. OK,
I'm intrigued as well.

We've bought introductory books with lots of pictures but a lot of
text as well, I'd estimate the reading level level at 4th or 5th grade
- I or my wife do most, but not all of the reading. Now my son wants
to see the planets and stars IRL.

So here are a couple of issues I'm facing in purchasing his first
telescope.

1: Refractor vs. reflector - I'm pretty much down with a refractor to
start, nothing too expensive in case he outgrows his interest. I'm
leaning towards the refractor because: it can also be used as a
terrestrial; they don't require periodic re-collimation; no cool down
time; seemingly more accessible to a kid who while smart still has the
patience of a kid.

I'm currently looking at a Bushnell 700 by 60mm model, 5MM and 20 MM
eyepieces. According to telescopes.com it's appropriate for deep
space and planetary viewing, whereas comparable 3.5" reflectors are
limited to planetary viewing.

2: Mounts. The Bushnell model comes with a yoke mount - there's also
one with an "easy track" mount. While I found a great deal of
comparative information about altazim and equatorial mounts (pros and
cons)I didn't find any information on the yoke or easy mounts.

3: Then there's this:
http://www.telescopes.com/products/B...Inch_5807.html.

Cons: A bit more expensive than the others models I've looked at and
no hope of using it for terrestrial viewing if his Lordship loses
interest in the skies. Cradle mount - we won't always be using this
where there's a nice flat elevated surface handy, like beaches.

Pros: Suitable for planetary and deep space viewing; very portable,
easy setup.

4: Lastly, I'm in the Northern Virginia area. Does anyone have
recommendations for a local telescope store with knowledgeable
salespeople?

Your comments will be gratefully appreciated.

Marc Wolfe

Marc,

I have a real heartburn with anything having the Bushnell label. And I
think the one you are considering has a 60 mm aperture (Bushnell 700 by
60mm model), too small for significant deep space viewing.

I recommend you do some reading at:

http://www.cloudynights.com/reviews.htm

and

http://www.scopereviews.com/

I'm sure others will provide other such links.

The scope at the link you provided is similar to the Astroscan, but
reported to be not as good.

I would recommend Orion as a good on-line source for beginning scopes:

http://www.telescope.com/jump.jsp?it...Type=HOME_PAGE

Similar URL but no s on the end of "telescope" :-) I think
Telescopes.com sells some good products and some I would not recommend.
Orion products are generally a good value, though they do not sell
some higher end brands.

Phil


Marc Wolfe wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm a newbie, not just to the group but to amateur
astronomy as well. I've got a good math/sci background and I've done
a great deal of research both in the group and elsewhere so I *think*
I've got a basic grasp of what's involved.

Background: I'm getting into this because my 6 year old son is
incredibly into astronomy and has been for the past 8-10 months. OK,
I'm intrigued as well.

We've bought introductory books with lots of pictures but a lot of
text as well, I'd estimate the reading level level at 4th or 5th grade
- I or my wife do most, but not all of the reading. Now my son wants
to see the planets and stars IRL.

So here are a couple of issues I'm facing in purchasing his first
telescope.

1: Refractor vs. reflector - I'm pretty much down with a refractor to
start, nothing too expensive in case he outgrows his interest. I'm
leaning towards the refractor because: it can also be used as a
terrestrial; they don't require periodic re-collimation; no cool down
time; seemingly more accessible to a kid who while smart still has the
patience of a kid.

I'm currently looking at a Bushnell 700 by 60mm model, 5MM and 20 MM
eyepieces. According to telescopes.com it's appropriate for deep
space and planetary viewing, whereas comparable 3.5" reflectors are
limited to planetary viewing.

2: Mounts. The Bushnell model comes with a yoke mount - there's also
one with an "easy track" mount. While I found a great deal of
comparative information about altazim and equatorial mounts (pros and
cons)I didn't find any information on the yoke or easy mounts.

3: Then there's this:
http://www.telescopes.com/products/B...Inch_5807.html.

Cons: A bit more expensive than the others models I've looked at and
no hope of using it for terrestrial viewing if his Lordship loses
interest in the skies. Cradle mount - we won't always be using this
where there's a nice flat elevated surface handy, like beaches.

Pros: Suitable for planetary and deep space viewing; very portable,
easy setup.

4: Lastly, I'm in the Northern Virginia area. Does anyone have
recommendations for a local telescope store with knowledgeable
salespeople?

Your comments will be gratefully appreciated.

Marc Wolfe

Your comments will be gratefully appreciated.

Marc Wolfe

Watch out - it is way too easy and, in fact likely, that you will end up
with something that will be unusable, and that you and your son will not
enjoy. The best advice I can give you is to seek out your local astronomy
club, and to do some observing with these folks. If you MUST buy something
now, then get a pair of binoculars. Finally, talk to the folks at a good
dealer - I wouldn't think that www.handsonoptics.com is too far from you.

Dennis

Marc Wolfe wrote:
So here are a couple of issues I'm facing in purchasing his first
telescope.

Marc,

We're all shuddering that you're considering the Bushnell refractor.
Please consider not doing that.

Refractor vs. reflector really really doesn't matter all that much.
There are things that do matter ...

Your most satisfying and common targets for his telescope are going to
be the Moon and planets. These are bright, easy to find, and do not
require equatorial mounts or electronics. Your most fun first telescope
is going to be "point and shoot".

Likewise you're going to have fun with a wide field telescope for scanning
the milky way and finding all the beautiful bright clusters and nebulae
you can see with a wide field at low magnification.

My wife and I have bought four or five of these telescopes: the
Starblast from Orion. (We keep one and give many away to friends and
family.) We've observed with kids using several of these -- planets
and the moon, and about half of the Messier list of deep sky objects.
Highly recommended. On top of its ease and simplicity, it comes with
good quality eyepieces and finder.

Here's a link:

http://www.telescope.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=4644&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&k eyword=starblast

or a tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/p2nb

A refractor choice would be the "Short Tube 80", or another short focal
length refractor, that gives great wide field views and is easy to use.
The disadvantage of this and other refractors is that they require mounts,
so you have to spend money to get a decent one.

Either of these telescopes will be ones that you keep even as you buy
more sophisticated optics later. (My wife uses a Short Tube 80 as the
finder on her 18-inch dobsonian, where it still gets used as a good
wide field telescope.)

They're also excellent solar sunspot telescopes with the proper filters.

For a step up, I recommend a dobsonian reflector such as the beauties
sold by Orion. Their 6-inch or 8-inch dobs are extremely easy to use
and give great views.

Some points to remember:

Where you observe has more effect on your observing than your choice
of telescope. If you really want to see the night sky beyond the Moon
and planets, you have to get out of the city lights.

Cheap tripods make for shaky observing. The big advantage of the
dobsonian style mount is that they are rock solid -- and most of your
dollars are spent on the optical quality instead of the mount.

A telescope that will let you point and look is going to be a lot more
fun to start out with than the computerized telescopes. A copy of
Sky & Telescope or Astronomy magazine is all you need for a good current
star chart to find the planets and bright deep sky objects.

No matter what telescope you buy, you'll eventually want to have a pair
of 7x50 (or 6x48) binoculars too, for enjoying the milky way and scanning
the sky. From a good dark location, it's fun seeing deep sky objects
with binoculars.

Good luck!

Mojo
--
Morris Jones *
Monrovia, CA

http://www.whiteoaks.com

Marc Wolfe wrote:

I'm currently looking at a Bushnell 700 by 60mm model, 5MM and 20 MM
eyepieces.

Please don't. That type of "telescope" discourages people from
astronomy, the exact opposite of your intent - this is what's called
disparagingly a "department store" telescope. I'm surprised that it's
being carried by a retailer that also has usable telescopes for sell.

As others have mentioned, a small Dob will work much better, and be
easier to use. Price is apparently a high consideration; some small, but
eminently usable, Dobs approach your price point, but after
consideration, you may want to raise your price point to broaden your
selection.

Check out Orion's website at www.telescope.com (no "s") (Actually, check
a bunch of websites - you can learn allot.) Look through Orion's
selection, and their comments.

1) Please don't do the 60mm Bushnell refractor. In the
telescope FAQ, there should be a picture of one under
the item _What Scopes Should I Avoid?_

2) The Bushnell bowling ball is a rotten implementation of
a workable optical scheme that is best manifested in
The Orion StarBlast. That scope goes for $169.00 . That's
$30.00 cheaper than your source for the much inferior
Bushnell. It's marketed for kids, and useful to adults.

http://www.telescope.com/shopping/pr...S=1&k eyword=

Find a review here
http://www.scopereviews.com/page1t.html

3) In this price range, consider the Orion XT 4.5 dob. Planetary
images will be somewhat sharper than they are in the StarBlast. It's
the same price as the bowling ball. Like the StarBlast, it is marketed
for kids, but useful to adults.
http://www.telescope.com/shopping/pr...S=1&ke yword=

Find a review at
http://www.scopereviews.com/page1s.html#3


If interest grows, you will surely want more aperture, but
either one of these will remain useful as a light alternative.
(Small scopes have their place in any arsenal.) You can
certainly start with more aperture, but I'm inferring
from your post that $200.00 is your limit.

-Larry (Owns a StarBlast and Bushnell Bowling Ball) C.

PLEASE don't get a Bushnell 60mm refractor...you'd be happier with light
weight binoculars...

Think about a 6" DOB. Cheap, and you'd see FAR more....

I have a 2 part article posted at:
www.etnaastros.com/clubstuff.htm

More is coming...please read it.

Chris (M13)

"Phil Wheeler" wrote in message
...
Marc,

I have a real heartburn with anything having the Bushnell label. And I
think the one you are considering has a 60 mm aperture (Bushnell 700 by
60mm model), too small for significant deep space viewing.

I recommend you do some reading at:

http://www.cloudynights.com/reviews.htm

and

http://www.scopereviews.com/

I'm sure others will provide other such links.

The scope at the link you provided is similar to the Astroscan, but
reported to be not as good.

I would recommend Orion as a good on-line source for beginning scopes:

http://www.telescope.com/jump.jsp?it...Type=HOME_PAGE

Similar URL but no s on the end of "telescope" :-) I think Telescopes.com
sells some good products and some I would not recommend. Orion products
are generally a good value, though they do not sell some higher end
brands.

Phil


Marc Wolfe wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm a newbie, not just to the group but to amateur
astronomy as well. I've got a good math/sci background and I've done
a great deal of research both in the group and elsewhere so I *think*
I've got a basic grasp of what's involved.

Background: I'm getting into this because my 6 year old son is
incredibly into astronomy and has been for the past 8-10 months. OK,
I'm intrigued as well.

We've bought introductory books with lots of pictures but a lot of
text as well, I'd estimate the reading level level at 4th or 5th grade
- I or my wife do most, but not all of the reading. Now my son wants
to see the planets and stars IRL.

So here are a couple of issues I'm facing in purchasing his first
telescope.

1: Refractor vs. reflector - I'm pretty much down with a refractor to
start, nothing too expensive in case he outgrows his interest. I'm
leaning towards the refractor because: it can also be used as a
terrestrial; they don't require periodic re-collimation; no cool down
time; seemingly more accessible to a kid who while smart still has the
patience of a kid.

I'm currently looking at a Bushnell 700 by 60mm model, 5MM and 20 MM
eyepieces. According to telescopes.com it's appropriate for deep
space and planetary viewing, whereas comparable 3.5" reflectors are
limited to planetary viewing.

2: Mounts. The Bushnell model comes with a yoke mount - there's also
one with an "easy track" mount. While I found a great deal of
comparative information about altazim and equatorial mounts (pros and
cons)I didn't find any information on the yoke or easy mounts.

3: Then there's this:
http://www.telescopes.com/products/B...Inch_5807.html.

Cons: A bit more expensive than the others models I've looked at and
no hope of using it for terrestrial viewing if his Lordship loses
interest in the skies. Cradle mount - we won't always be using this
where there's a nice flat elevated surface handy, like beaches.

Pros: Suitable for planetary and deep space viewing; very portable,
easy setup.

4: Lastly, I'm in the Northern Virginia area. Does anyone have
recommendations for a local telescope store with knowledgeable
salespeople?

Your comments will be gratefully appreciated.

Marc Wolfe

PLEASE don't get a Bushnell 60mm refractor...you'd be happier with light
weight binoculars...



Another consideration....a really cheap "deparment store" telescope has
virtually NO resale value....

However, if you buy a 200 to 300 to 400 dollar "real"
telescope.....particularly under the guidance of the good folks here or amateur
astronomers in your area....you can pretty much RESELL it for a GOOD FRACTION
of what you paid for it....assuming you dont do something stupid like drive
over it with the car....

So, whats less of a financial risk?....a crappy 150 dollar scope...that you can
hardly give away and is only most likely to turn you and your son off of
astronomy......or a decent 200 to 300 dollar one that has SO MUCH MORE
performance that your son is much more likely to maintain interest....and even
if he doesnt, you can probably sell it for most of what you paid for it?

take care

Blll

BllFs6 wrote:
PLEASE don't get a Bushnell 60mm refractor...you'd be happier with light
weight binoculars...




Another consideration....a really cheap "deparment store" telescope has
virtually NO resale value....

However, if you buy a 200 to 300 to 400 dollar "real"
telescope.....particularly under the guidance of the good folks here or amateur
astronomers in your area....you can pretty much RESELL it for a GOOD FRACTION
of what you paid for it....assuming you dont do something stupid like drive
over it with the car....

So, whats less of a financial risk?....a crappy 150 dollar scope...that you can
hardly give away and is only most likely to turn you and your son off of
astronomy......or a decent 200 to 300 dollar one that has SO MUCH MORE
performance that your son is much more likely to maintain interest....and even
if he doesnt, you can probably sell it for most of what you paid for it?

take care

Blll
So...How about one of Orion Telescope's "Starblast" 'scopes? I've heard
of quite a few astronomers getting those as "grab & go" 'scopes (don't
own one, but apparently they are quite popular)...
Steve B.

Doink says...

PLEASE don't get a Bushnell 60mm refractor...you'd be happier with light
weight binoculars...

Think about a 6" DOB. Cheap, and you'd see FAR more....

I have a 2 part article posted at:
www.etnaastros.com/clubstuff.htm

More is coming...please read it.

Nice site! "Buying your First Telescope" is especially good.

I looked at http://www.etnaastros.com/clubstuff.htm and couldn't
figure out *where* your club is. So I clicked on "July 17th
Star Party" Ah. It's at Chris and Paula's home. That certainly
narrows it down! So I tried "July 7th meeting." That one was at
Dotty's. Hmmm. Maybe the home page? AHA! You are in ETNA, CA!!!
I knew that it was there somewhere.