Columbia crew not fully suited up during reentry?

On 27 Aug 2003 05:45:00 GMT, in a place far, far away, Pat Flannery
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

What's this about no pressure suits? I assumed that donning pressure
suits was required under flight rules for reentry

And under what realistic failure mode would their having pressure
suits on have saved them?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

Pat Flannery wrote in :

I was absolutely flabbergasted to read this on MSN

"....Columbia’s crew died within seconds after Mission Control lost
signals from the shuttle.
“The destruction of the crew module took place over a period of 24
seconds beginning at an altitude of approximately 140,000 feet,” the
report said. Death was attributed to blunt trauma and loss of oxygen.
A final video from inside the crew compartment, just minutes before the
breakup, showed that three crew members were not wearing the pressure
suits, gloves and helmets prescribed for re-entry. However, this
oversight “did not affect their chances of survival,” the report said..."

What's this about no pressure suits? I assumed that donning pressure
suits was required under flight rules for reentry...

Read it again, but carefully this time, Pat.

"...not wearing the pressure suits, gloves AND helmets..."
(emphasis mine)

While you're at it, you might want to hunt down the cockpit video again.
They were all wearing their suits. Looks like they hadn't put their gloves
on yet, but the video ends about twelve minutes before the accident.

Frankly, if correctly
reported, this is the single most disturbing thing I've heard to date
regarding the loss of Columbia....

Surely that's a facetious statement. There were plenty of other things in
the report that I found far more disturbing than the fact that the crew was
slow in donning equipment that wouldn't have saved them anyway.

--
JRF

Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" (I am not assimilated) and
think one step ahead of IBM.

In article , says...
I was absolutely flabbergasted to read this on MSN

"....Columbia’s crew died within seconds after Mission Control lost
signals from the shuttle.
“The destruction of the crew module took place over a period of 24
seconds beginning at an altitude of approximately 140,000 feet,” the
report said. Death was attributed to blunt trauma and loss of oxygen.
A final video from inside the crew compartment, just minutes before the
breakup, showed that three crew members were not wearing the pressure
suits, gloves and helmets prescribed for re-entry. However, this
oversight “did not affect their chances of survival,” the report said..."

What's this about no pressure suits? I assumed that donning pressure
suits was required under flight rules for reentry...had things gotten so
completely lax at NASA that behavior that Wally Schirra got jumped on
for in Apollo 7 was now considered acceptable? Considering the heating
and aerodynamic forces that the Shuttle encounters during reentry,
wasn't there a thought that nonfatal damage could still lead to loss of
pressurization in the crew compartment- or that heating could lead to
fire, or release of toxic gasses by overheated equipment or leaking nose
RCS propellant supplies? Did this dangerous crew practice also occur on
other post-Challenger flights during reentry? Frankly, if correctly
reported, this is the single most disturbing thing I've heard to date
regarding the loss of Columbia....

IIRC, the cockpit video shows several of the crew putting on gloves near
the end, and I don't recall any of them on the flight deck who weren't
wearing their helmets. They may not have had the visors down and locked,
but they had the helmets on.

I think the conclusions of the board also reflect the state in which the
bodies were recovered. You could probably tell whether or not a crewman
was completely suited based on the remains of the body and the suit.

As for the Apollo 7 debacle, the only reason that particular crew was
highly encouraged to wear their PGAs during entry was that they were on
the maiden flight of a new spacecraft. IIRC, the only other Apollo crew
who entered while suited was the Apollo 15 crew, and that came as a
result of the Soyuz 11 accident, which occurred just a month prior to
Apollo 15. Dave Scott's crew got to climb into their PGAs for *all* pyro
events, including the SIM bay door jett. But, for example, in the Apollo
8 debrief, they talk about how they took off their suits after TLI,
stowed them, and never once got them back out for the rest of the flight.
Including entry.

--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn
thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup |

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote in :

Frankly, if correctly reported, this is the single most disturbing thing I've heard
to date regarding the loss of Columbia....

Surely that's a facetious statement. There were plenty of other things in
the report that I found far more disturbing than the fact that the crew was
slow in donning equipment that wouldn't have saved them anyway.

What we are looking at here Jorge is patterns. Management wasn't
following the rules, flight controllers were not either, and now it
seems the astronauts as well?

This is a very sick system we are looking at here, and the illness
runs deeper than just management.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.

Jorge R. Frank wrote:


While you're at it, you might want to hunt down the cockpit video again.
They were all wearing their suits. Looks like they hadn't put their gloves
on yet, but the video ends about twelve minutes before the accident.

And they showed the video last night on History Channel...at the point
they aren't wearing gloves, the crew is watching the beginning of plasma
formation outside the cockpit windows...and as we now know, the wing
structure is beginning to be damaged, and pieces are beginning to be
shed from the Orbiter.




Frankly, if correctly
reported, this is the single most disturbing thing I've heard to date
regarding the loss of Columbia....



Surely that's a facetious statement. There were plenty of other things in
the report that I found far more disturbing than the fact that the crew was
slow in donning equipment that wouldn't have saved them anyway.



To me though, that slow donning was emblematic of the whole situation
that led to the loss of Columbia; a failure to go "by the book" at every
phase of the whole operaton....when mission rules state that you should
be fully suited up at X minutes before reentry, you should be suited up
by that time- not around that time.
When mission rules require that the ET has zero shedding of insulation
during ascent, that should mean zero shedding....not popcorn sized
chunks are acceptable- but suitcase sized ones aren't.

Pat

Doug... wrote:


I think the conclusions of the board also reflect the state in which the
bodies were recovered. You could probably tell whether or not a crewman
was completely suited based on the remains of the body and the suit.


Trying to be as delicate as possible about this...some of the bodies
were found very far from the crashed cockpit area, and in a badly burned
and dismembered state...it is not unusual for passengers falling from an
disintegrating airliner at cruising altitude to spin so quickly when
they are falling toward the ground that both clothing and limbs are
stripped from them be centrifugal force.


As for the Apollo 7 debacle, the only reason that particular crew was
highly encouraged to wear their PGAs during entry was that they were on
the maiden flight of a new spacecraft. IIRC, the only other Apollo crew
who entered while suited was the Apollo 15 crew, and that came as a
result of the Soyuz 11 accident, which occurred just a month prior to
Apollo 15. Dave Scott's crew got to climb into their PGAs for *all* pyro
events, including the SIM bay door jett. But, for example, in the Apollo
8 debrief, they talk about how they took off their suits after TLI,
stowed them, and never once got them back out for the rest of the flight.
Including entry.



But wearing pressure suits was one of the (few) safety changes made
after Challenger in regards to the crew's survival...and if it's a
mission rule, then you should obey it to the letter. Being fully suited
up during Columbia's disintegration wouldn't have made an iota of
difference in regards to the crew's survival chances...but it would be
an extra thing to have in your corner if less severe incidents occurred
during reentry; and if it only up's the survival chance by say 5% in
regards to such scenarios, then it's worth the bother in my opinion. And
it is a mission rule.

Pat

Derek Lyons wrote:

What we are looking at here Jorge is patterns. Management wasn't
following the rules, flight controllers were not either, and now it
seems the astronauts as well?

This is a very sick system we are looking at here, and the illness
runs deeper than just management.



What it reminds me of again and again is dirigible flight in the 20's
and 30's- only the Germans had any luck with safe long-term operations;
as they were the only ones who understood that everything has to be done
to a near-perfect standard in all phases of operation; from design,
through construction, to maintenance, crew training, and operational
safety rules...any error in any of these areas (especially with hydrogen
as the lifting agent) would lead to inevitable disaster in routine
operations...both the Shuttle and Zeppelins share a basic fragility,
that is not fault-tolerant in any phase of their operations.

Pat

In article ,
(Derek Lyons) wrote:

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote:

Pat Flannery wrote in :

Frankly, if correctly reported, this is the single most disturbing thing
I've heard
to date regarding the loss of Columbia....

Surely that's a facetious statement. There were plenty of other things in
the report that I found far more disturbing than the fact that the crew was
slow in donning equipment that wouldn't have saved them anyway.

What we are looking at here Jorge is patterns. Management wasn't
following the rules, flight controllers were not either, and now it
seems the astronauts as well?

This is a very sick system we are looking at here, and the illness
runs deeper than just management.

D.


I agree, Derek. I remember watching the reentry video some months ago
and noting how Husband (I think it was) had to remark to the others to
basically quit fooling around. He also (IIRC) reminded everyone to get
their gloves on and so forth. I remember thinking two specific things
at the time: first, he seemed a bit tense. Having never watched
another reentry video, however, I have no basis of comparison. The
second thought I had at the time was that the mission commander
shouldn't *have* to remind folks to get their gloves on or to quit
fooling around.

I realize of course that none of that made one iota's difference in the
ultimate outcome.

--
Herb Schaltegger, B.S., J.D.
Reformed Aerospace Engineer
"Heisenberg might have been here."
~ Anonymous

Rand Simberg wrote:

And under what realistic failure mode would their having pressure
suits on have saved them?



Any loss of crew cabin pressure or contamination of crew cabin
atmosphere, and a loss of crew cabin pressure requires only a small hole
anywhere in the exterior of the crew cabin, and could reasonably be
caused by minor damage that would not in itself lead to vehicle loss
(for instance it could occur after the main reentry heating phase while
the orbiter was still at very high altitude). Leaking RCS propellants
could enter the cabin (just ask the ASTP crew) at low altitudes when
interior/exterior pressure equalization occurs- which is why NASA sends
out the sniffer truck with the safety suited crew on it before the
astronauts leave the orbiter.
Also how are you supposed to use the bail-out pole if you aren't fully
suited up? If an SR-71 pilot flew a mission sans pressure suit, the Air
Force would have court-martialed him; and the Shuttle is exposed to far
more severe conditions than a Blackbird's flight during it's
reentry....have "mission rules" become "mission suggestions"?

Pat

Herb Schaltegger wrote:


I realize of course that none of that made one iota's difference in the
ultimate outcome.



What exactly are the odds that two people would both use turn of phrase
with "iota" in it in regards to the Columbia's loss in such quick
succession? (I wrote mine before I read Herb's) This can mean only one
thing ...Herb Schaltegger and I are both IDENTICAL CLONES from the same
zygote mass that was brought to Earth from Canopus 6! Physically linked
by those cybernetic centipedes that live up our noses, as were revealed
in the Sci-Fi Channel's "Taken" miniseries (by the Well-Known,
Fellow-Traveling, Knee-Jerk, Alien-Hugging Cyborg known as Steven
Spielberg!) to the foolishly misled Muto-Monkey Blood-Bags of Sol 3!
WELL, the plot- like Venusian Fire Woman Genital Excretions- thickens!
And we must now turn our
far-more-sensitive-to-infrared-emmisions-than-any- Earth-mammel eyes
(all 24 of them) toward Hungary...to see if that Puppet Of The
Pleiadins, Tamas Feher, has yet received the subspace hyperlight
activator signal from his Pleone-worshipping masters, and will wind up
that Atlantian artifact that he has mistaken for an ancient Greek alarm
clock (in his Terracentric foolishness)...releasing ZOOGY- the Dog Of A
Thousand Leashes- from his submerged crypt under the Isle Of Santorini,
to once again play havoc with the Earth's dimensions; and call all of
the Secret Tibetan Dog-Masters into Grand Convocation on the slopes of
Vesuvius; from there to lead the Spartacus-like uprising of all the
Canis-Not-Now-So-Domesticus in the world against their masters, thereby
returning the Earth to the wretched control of ELLEN BARKUS- High
Priestess Of The Dog Star!
And after that...things are going to get really interesting, as Homo Sap
gets his at the end of a rolled up copy of the Siriusan Human Lover
magazine...before his nose is unceremoniously rubbed in the mess he's
made of history, and he has to spend the night in the humanhouse, before
heading for the humanarian- and his well-deserved neutering, on the morrow.

Pat